Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast • Hacker News Board

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#101

Post by regnerba » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

mikece wrote: post #2

Netflix seems to be hedging their bets by partnering with T-Mobile, the company aiming to bring 5G wireless to the US. As for Alphabet, I'm submitting this comment via my 1Gbps synchronous Google Fiber internet connection. Google seems to have stalled rollout of Fiber, however.

My understanding of Google Fiber is that they ran into to many headaches from existing telecom companies while trying to expand their fiber infrastructure. Instead of continuing to fight such an uphill battle they are trying to make a wireless approach work.

I haven't heard much recently from their more standard wireless attempts (other than Loom being used in Puerto Rico) but they did invest (jointly with Fidelity) $1 billion into SpaceX. The assumption is the SpaceX investments are specifically to support the SpaceX Starlink constellation which if successful could bring wireless internet to pretty much all of the planet.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#102

Post by niftich » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 5:58 PM UTC

dsabanin wrote: post #38

pascalxus wrote: post #5

This the end of innovation in online videos: "When companies like Netflix, which today closed with a market cap of almost $158 billion, can’t necessarily get enough negotiating power to ensure that consumers have direct access to them, no startup can ever hope to compete. America may believe in its entrepreneurs, but its competition laws have done nothing to keep the terrain open for them. Those implications are just…

I just fail to see how Comcast or Verizon are going to be selling you their internet connection if you won't be able to connect to the things you want to connect to (like Netflix, iTunes, YouTube) through them. Especially on higher plans, people buy a lot of bandwidth so that they can stream videos, that's how ISPs up-sell to them. If they start throttling, they'll be selling an empty bucket, and it's not going to be…

Here's some possible scenarios that illustrate what could play out:

- They could zero-rate their own offerings, making them available at a very low price and not counting them against data usage.

- They could offer no-cost access to some of their own offerings with a compatible, captive piece of equipment (e.g. handset, modem, cable box).

- They could charge third-parties more per unit of data for interconnect, creating financial pressure on them that makes third-parties consider no longer interconnecting with that provider. This will make customers choose between having that particular ISP or having access to that particular content provider. Some portion will choose to stay with the ISP, likely cancelling any ongoing subscriptions to the content provider.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#103

Post by DenisM » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:00 PM UTC

martinald wrote: post #41

haikuginger wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having wireless providers who are able to provide landline-level speeds means that many markets will go from having one or maybe two real ISP options to having three or four. Competition means that if the benefits of net neutrality are desirable, customers will prefer an ISP (wireless or otherwise) that provides those benefits. Of course, most actual counterexamples to net neutrality are seen as positives (free Netfl…

I really don't get why people think this is possible. Even with microcells and loads of spectrum, you might be able to get 2gigabit/sec of internet per cell, which would be enough for perhaps a couple hundred streams (not including all the other internet services people require all the time). Considering most cells right now serve thousands if not tens of thousands of devices, there is simply no way that wireless bro…

If there is more demand for cell service the cell companies will build more towers. Lower the power levels and use higher frequency bands to reduce interference.

By your numbers, 200 clients x $50/mo $10k revenue per mo for a tower. A new cell tower costs $150k, so it pays for itself in 15 months.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#104

Post by lovich » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #75

spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies, but operated under a regulatory regime called "common carrier," which protected the network owner from liability so long as it charged and carried traffic from all parties equally. These days, that concept is called "net neutrality" in the context of the Internet, and I suppose you may have heard it ment…

Cubans drive 50 year old cars because their closest neighbor, who is also a superpower, has been enforcing sanctions on them for decades. It's disenguous to try and measure how a system works then another party is putting their foot on the scale.

As for private buildouts being better than government funded infrastructure, that is only true as long as profit is your single measure of "better".

When it comes to services that we don't want any downtime for and want everyone to have access to, then government funded infrastructure has done better than capitalist forces. Water and electricity are both services we want everyone to have access to that as uninterrupted as possible. It's still not perfect as situations like Flint or industrial water usage in California pulling out water without paying enough to be sustsinable, but a capitalist system for those services would lead to many not being able to pay enough for access and going without as well as interruptions in service as companies push their systems to the bone for efficiency or go out of business

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#105

Post by xutopia » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:01 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #72

I don't think ISPs have any power in this situation at all. They are just delivery mechanisms when it comes to providing internet connectivity. All of the power lies within Google, Netflix and other content providers. Google could one day deny access to all of its services for all Comcast customers. If all of the content providers / big sites band together and do this, then there would be no value in paying for a Com…

That only goes to serve Comcast who then has the possibility to create a product shittier than Netflix and force it down their client's throat.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#106

Post by cwp » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

spruciefic399 wrote: post #89

cwp wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, take away right of way to private ISPs, and let citizens and municipalities charge arbitrary amounts for anything going over their property. That would make private ISPs go away.

Perhaps. I'd prefer it not to--I'd rather have an ecosystem with private and public competition, and one with net neutrality regulation. But it seems to me the discussion is generally really lopsided, with little to no acknowledgment of what ISPs get from the public. If the ISPs really want unfettered competition, then I say fine--but I think, as you say, if we really took competition seriously the consequences would…

Agreed, we do give a lot to private companies in order to get the benefits of their products, and they're constantly pushing for more. I just feel that the internet as a utility is still too new for us to know exactly what the right regulator regime is or the optimal role of government in actually providing internet services.

Ideally regulation would be more reactive than proactive. Rather than defining explicitly the terms and services that ISPs must provide, we'd let them compete with each other and try different products and business models. The government would only step in when they do something that turns out to be harmful. The trick would be to actually step in where needed and not just let anything go.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#107

Post by forapurpose » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

I wonder how much the ISPs will invest based on the current regulatory rules. Net neutrality could be revived, especially in a few years after the next U.S. presidential election.

Businesses usually want certainty so that they can invest in the future. In the state where net neutrality is repealed, there is far more uncertainty; it could be revived any time. If the ISPs accept the state that net neutrality is implemented, there is stability and certainty going forward.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#108

Post by DenisM » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

0xffff2 wrote: post #22

haikuginger wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having wireless providers who are able to provide landline-level speeds means that many markets will go from having one or maybe two real ISP options to having three or four. Competition means that if the benefits of net neutrality are desirable, customers will prefer an ISP (wireless or otherwise) that provides those benefits. Of course, most actual counterexamples to net neutrality are seen as positives (free Netfl…

Are these providers actually going to compete with landline ISP's? My landline ISPs over the last couple of years have had monthly data caps ranging from 256gb to 1tb. My cell plan currently throttles me after I exceed 6gb... That's two orders of magnitude that my wireless provider would have to increase the cap in order to compete with the landline ISP.

T-Mobile soft cap at 50gb, that’s on LTE. With 5g speed going up 10x I wouldn’t be surprised caps going 10 x as well. We’re nearly there.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#109

Post by 086421357909764 » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #75

spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies, but operated under a regulatory regime called "common carrier," which protected the network owner from liability so long as it charged and carried traffic from all parties equally. These days, that concept is called "net neutrality" in the context of the Internet, and I suppose you may have heard it ment…

The even shittier thing is, assuming your muni get the efforts going, it's not uncommon for comcast to all of a sudden have a competing product at a cheaper rate. Where the didn't have bandwidth they suddenly can support the increased rates due to competition. It's just nuts.

Re: Netflix and Alphabet will need to become ISPs, fast

#110

Post by reaperducer » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:03 PM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #75

spruciefic399 wrote: post #56

Another strategy to this (not exclusive of other strategies) is to encourage municipal ISPs, or even go further and roll out federal ISP infrastructure ala the federal highway system. I've always thought that this would be well within the rubric of the USPS. The constitutional mandate for a postal service was drafted at a time when the internet could not have been conceived of. I would argue that the intent of the co…

The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies, but operated under a regulatory regime called "common carrier," which protected the network owner from liability so long as it charged and carried traffic from all parties equally. These days, that concept is called "net neutrality" in the context of the Internet, and I suppose you may have heard it ment…

>The next step beyond the mail was the telegraph and then the telephone. Those were built out by private companies

Yes, and no.

The electric and telephone companies built out the cities and big population centers, but left 50%+ of the nation without service. Much like today's ISP's would like to do.

Some places only got wired because they formed local electric co-ops and what were called "rural telephone" cooperatives.

Even then, it wasn't always enough, and the feds had to add a Universal Service Fee to every phone bill to redirect that money to the big telephone companies so they would serve the entire nation, and not only the most profitable areas.