How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers • Hacker News Board

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#131

Post by ryanmercer » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 2:17 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

In my experience here in Indy, a large number of Uber (mind you, the bulk of my experience is Uber Eats) drivers are individuals that appear to be in their 60's, presumably retired persons looking to supplement their income and/or just have something to do.

I'd say roughly 5% of my drivers have appeared under retirement age. I wonder what the age statistics look like nationwide.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#132

Post by lovich » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:03 PM UTC

dahauns wrote: post #112

candiodari wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the problem. People just don't see giving other people a chance at a livable life as a factor in any decision. Yes, it's probably less than ideal that tired drivers do this. But, mostly, it's a very good thing that this person was able to survive and prevent another homeless family. Let me guess, "the government should just provide for them ?" (without, of course, raising your taxes).

As someone coming from a country whose government sucessfully provides several means to prevent these kinds of scenarios, the idea of seeing this as a fundamentally good thing frankly strikes me as absurd.

Aye, it's not like our total tax rates are too far off from Western European economies as well. We just spend billions/trillions on other things

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#133

Post by lovich » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 3:11 PM UTC

candiodari wrote: post #88

tankerslay wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Health care has leeched a huge amount of wage growth from the economy, in businesses large and small. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-09-28/health-ca...

Well, in trade for health care ... yes. In the same way cars and TVs have "caused" a huge amount of debt.

Cars and TVs go down in price for the same feature set as technological improvements and nor efficient business models are created. Healthcare has gotten more expensive every year for the same features(ex, a physical, or treatment for the flu). That is where healthcare is leeching money out of the economy.

They haven't provided any improvements in service or products, they've just learned how to wring more money out of everyone

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#134

Post by tankerslay » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:43 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #133

candiodari wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in trade for health care ... yes. In the same way cars and TVs have "caused" a huge amount of debt.

Cars and TVs go down in price for the same feature set as technological improvements and nor efficient business models are created. Healthcare has gotten more expensive every year for the same features(ex, a physical, or treatment for the flu). That is where healthcare is leeching money out of the economy. They haven't provided any improvements in service or products, they've just learned how to wring more money out…

A very limited number of features have improved (e.g. if you have HepC). At the same time there has been massive price inflation for things that are marketed as "improvements" without convincing evidence of actually being better (e.g. nexium vs prilosec, many medical devices).

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#135

Post by vertexFarm » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

knuththetruth wrote: post #37

vertexFarm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's absolutely a desperation career. Those always exist somewhere in any economy, and arguably there should be options available for desperate people, but the sheer volume of them is getting sad. It's like the US has a very poor, developing country double-exposed over an insanely wealthy and advanced one, both occupying the same territory. I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the…

>I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the world. It’s similar to the collapse of the Soviet Union, with the opioid crisis taking the place of people drinking themselves to death. You also see the same high-levels of corruption, especially in tech, where former Obama officials are given high-level jobs at the big firms or gig unicorns. Hell, even Obama himself just got a Netflix de…

People are starting to see a lot of parallels between the US today and the Soviet Union when it fell. I recommend the book Nothing is True and Everything is Possible to get a good feel for that heady, depressing-yet-exciting fall of Rome zeitgeist.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#136

Post by njarboe » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

cornholio wrote: post #85

njarboe wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People getting paid $100k/year or $200k/year to do that job? Wouldn't it be cool if robots did most things and people could make good money doing the not-very-fun things the robots can't do.

I don't think we are literally able to imagine the implications of an economic scenario where the market clearing wage for toilet cleaning is $200.000, with current purchasing parity (that is, every janitor could buy the equivalent of a nice suburban home, every year, or accumulate the equivalent of 100 acres / 40 hectares of land in capital, every year). That world would have more to do with a Star Trek episode than…

In the US in 1960 one can find wage surveys[1] where one finds saleries of: Electric, gas, sanitary services: $6147/yr Wholesale and retail trade: $4478/yr

The first would be where janitors would go and retail is another poorly paid job today.

The average house cost in 1960 [2] was $11,900.

So with a house price of around two times yearly income, we get to about $100k wage for a janitor or retail clerk in 1960. US post WWII was a pretty unique situation, but one would hope that you should be able to more than imagine such a situation. You can study the existence of such a culture in the recent past and still talk to people who actually lived it.

[1](https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015021301612;vi...)

[2]https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/housing/census/historic/valu...

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#137

Post by scruple » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:14 PM UTC

mijowi wrote: post #114

hkmurakami wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erratic shift work in retail is definitely worse than gig work. http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-retail-scheduling-2018... “The Kmart in Los Angeles where Noemi Castro works often doesn't post her schedule until a few days before the week begins, she said. Days off frequently change, as do her hours. Last week, she got 26 hours; this week only eight. Sometimes, Castro said, a last-minute change is made to an onl…

I worked in retail...this kind of bad management is everywhere. You expect me to show up when you changed the schedule and didn't tell me? Are you fucking kidding me? Fuck retail, and food service. Seriously.

I avoided retail work after having lived through this (no notice schedule changes) over a single Christmas season. At least when I worked construction sites and warehouses the shifts were static.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#138

Post by candiodari » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:32 PM UTC

dahauns wrote: post #112

candiodari wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See this is the problem. People just don't see giving other people a chance at a livable life as a factor in any decision. Yes, it's probably less than ideal that tired drivers do this. But, mostly, it's a very good thing that this person was able to survive and prevent another homeless family. Let me guess, "the government should just provide for them ?" (without, of course, raising your taxes).

As someone coming from a country whose government sucessfully provides several means to prevent these kinds of scenarios, the idea of seeing this as a fundamentally good thing frankly strikes me as absurd.

As someone who's now lived in 5 countries let me just say : your post is absurd. All of those countries have governments that "successfully provide several means to prevent ..." and ... in none of them was it a problem to find people sleeping on the street. I never once actually tried to find them, incidentally. Just take some trains in any large city.

Which is that country that supposedly prevents these situations ? I'm sure finding a picture won't be a problem.

But I know, it makes you feel real good about your own worst-case future to think that doesn't happen. Now go out and talk to some older people that have had a bad run, and I guarantee, even in the Netherlands, you'll feel a whole lot worse about it. None of the other countries come even close to what the Netherlands supposedly does (If you don't mind living in a building where you get attacked daily for being old that is. Or the social worker doesn't like you. Or ... And let's just not discuss the waiting lines to get to talk to someone if something goes wrong)

I just don't know where people get the idea that the government has their back. Incomprehensible. I mean, sure they have rules and regulations that may help in specific situations (especially for rich guys to pay less tax I mean), but help people who are powerless ? Good luck with that.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#139

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:35 PM UTC

dahauns wrote: post #130

lotsofpulp wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't use it because it's cool and hip, they use it because it's efficient and provides a valuable service. Overhead for managing repetitive and time intensive labor work is high, so when a program can do it, that overhead drops, efficiency increases, and it becomes profitable.

Sorry, I'm honestly not sure I understand how your comment relates to mine. I'm talking about the gig economy from a workers perspective.

Oops, my bad, I interpreted the people buying the uber rides and lyft rides as doing it because it's cool and hip, but I see you meant selling to the drivers, not the riders.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#140

Post by candiodari » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 6:42 PM UTC

lovich wrote: post #133

candiodari wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, in trade for health care ... yes. In the same way cars and TVs have "caused" a huge amount of debt.

Cars and TVs go down in price for the same feature set as technological improvements and nor efficient business models are created. Healthcare has gotten more expensive every year for the same features(ex, a physical, or treatment for the flu). That is where healthcare is leeching money out of the economy. They haven't provided any improvements in service or products, they've just learned how to wring more money out…

First, cars haven't gone down much in price. Advanced in quality, sure. Gone down in price ? Hardly, at least in my experience. About 8-14 months net pay. TVs have gone up massively, mostly because flatscreens make ridiculous TVs possible. A CRT screen just can't be big. 50" is ridiculously large for a CRT, and anything under 40" is just unusable, so there just wasn't much difference between the cheapest and the most expensive screen in the 90s. Then, when plasma screens came, the prices for the top end went utterly ridiculous. But in the 90s you just couldn't spend a month's pay on a (single) TV. Now, 32000$ screens are in every electronics store (who do they sell these to I often wonder).

But the thing is, eliminating labor from healthcare seems to just be impossible to do in a responsible manner. So their prices go up with specialist labor prices. And yes, those have not exactly gone down. As for actual prices for basic things, I do get the impression they've gone down. Not by a lot, but 20-30% over a decade or two ? Certainly.