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Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

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Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#71
post #67

Given that google is the de facto standard ATM and often returns irrelevant results, I'd wager that search isn't solved. "That does not by itself mean there's room for a new search engine, but lately when using Google search I've found myself nostalgic for the old days, when Google was true to its own slightly aspy self. Google used to give me a page of the right answers, fast, with no clutter. Now the results seem i…

I would suppose that this change is less google changing and more the web changing as people pump out content marketing and SEO. Also might be "olden days were greener", I sure remember a lot of keyword stuffing back in the day.

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#72
post #67

Given that google is the de facto standard ATM and often returns irrelevant results, I'd wager that search isn't solved. "That does not by itself mean there's room for a new search engine, but lately when using Google search I've found myself nostalgic for the old days, when Google was true to its own slightly aspy self. Google used to give me a page of the right answers, fast, with no clutter. Now the results seem i…

> the Scientologist principle that what's true is what's true for you.

Care to elaborate more on that ?

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#74
The field of Information Retrieval has largely moved to multi-modal retrieval (search across video, audio, text), linked data, question-answering and so on.

But document retrieval (classic search as you describe it) is not a hot topic anymore. That does not mean there are not people working on constantly improving document retrieval: Google Scholar returns 17,800 results for "document retrieval" in 2018 and 34 results with it in title. So it is in widespread use but not the focus of the field, I would say.

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#75
post #67

Given that google is the de facto standard ATM and often returns irrelevant results, I'd wager that search isn't solved. "That does not by itself mean there's room for a new search engine, but lately when using Google search I've found myself nostalgic for the old days, when Google was true to its own slightly aspy self. Google used to give me a page of the right answers, fast, with no clutter. Now the results seem i…

> Now if I accidentally put the cursor in the wrong place, anything might happen.

Google used to be one of the few websites I whitelisted on my Javascript blocker. I had to remove it from the whitelist, because otherwise its search became unusable: things moving when you scroll over them, URLs magically changing when clicked or even right-clicked, the search page URL actually pointing to a previous search because it used Javascript to submit the new search, etc.

At least Google search still works fine with Javascript disabled. Unfortunately, they also moved Google Maps to the main domain (it used to be in a subdomain), so I have to temporarily whitelist it every time I want to use Google Maps, then remember to remove it again from the whitelist before doing a normal web search.

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#76
There are big opportunities precisely because the field seems dead.

(1) The first big story is the dominance of Google. With an advertising-centered model, Google has a reason to degrade result quality. If you get trained to scroll down to find the real results and you found them good, you might avoid touching any of the ads (hard to do because they cover so much of the screen.)

(2) The web is 95% Javascript and 95% Spam -- getting useful results at all requires fairly strict 'censorship' and vast resources if you want to compete on Google's ground. No serious competitor will come in with a different model, nothing will change unless you have a search engine that YOU pay for and not the advertisers.

(3) "Desktop search" is discredited in most peoples minds. Your OS might have added it as a feature back in 1995, but you've kept it turned off because it slows down your computer and never finds what you are looking for. Result quality is an issue, but the #1 perception here is that the indexing process harms the user experience. In the era of multicore, NVMe, etc. can this be changed?

(4) "Website search" is also discredited. Product search commonly works, but search on most web sites is so bad that people are trained to just search on Google. Thus you have very few chances to change people's minds.

(5) There is a big literature (the TREC conference) but there is something profoundly depressing about it. It was one of the first big competitions, but unlike the SAT Solver competition or Imagenet it was not associated with a rapid improvement of technology but rather a painful slog through the mud. If you start reading it at the beginning or in the middle somewhere you will find that 20 or so things that you thought were sure bets to improve relevance don't work. If you read the cliff note's to the first 10 years written by the organizer, you find out that there was an interesting discovery made 5 years in...

(6) The BM25 ranking function which has two tunable parameters. BM25 was a huge advance because it can be tuned to comparable rank documents that are highly variable in size. BM25 is built into Elastic Search, but nobody will give you any advise how to tune those parameters...

(7) Because they don't follow the relevance evaluation protocol in TREC; this is badly flawed, but the data exists, and going from naive tfidf to tuned up BM25 or information theoretic approach (also implemented in Elasticsearch) will put up better numbers AND seem more relevant to end users.

(8) An open-source project to do that evaluation on Lucene got started but never made a project; I have talked with Enterprise Search vendors who were very aware of points 5-7 but did not tune up their search because it was easier to sell customers on having hundreds of "connectors".

(9) The mainstream of TREC (it has broken into many flavors) and IR research has been getting high recall at low precision. Maybe that's because when Gerard Salton was messing around with punched cards at Cornell, 70 abstracts was a lot of documents. Patent searchers and paralegals are interested in deep recall, other people aren't.

(10) A major flaw in the mainstream TREC approach is that they are trying to tune up the wrong function: the ideal relevance score is a probability estimator of how likely the document is to be relevant.

(11) Google and Bing have made noises about personalized search but they don't really do it. They are both stuck at 70% relevance for the first result because of their limits in inferring user intent. The real relevance function has the user's context as an input variable, but sampling by that thins the data points to where it can't be approached as a "big data" problem. "Personalization" works for advertisers who don't know your real intent but are willing to pay for a 5% chance you may click, but not for you where you will feel misunderstood (primed to get irrationally angry) 95% of the time.

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#77
post #64
post #29

If anything, it's an abandoned problem. A lot of companies bought really expensive enterprise search systems, which are sitting dormant because the results are so bad. With advances in spamming, internet/email search is getting to be a harder problem every year. I remember when Google was quite effective in finding what I need, but nowadays it's dismal. As an example, I googled for "storename return policy", and got…

Ah! This drives me insane and it's only started recently. I can enter as little as two words in format 'uncommonProperNoun commonNoun', and the entire first page will be results of 'missing uncommonProperNoun'. It's maddening. It's like searching for 'the moon' and getting results back containing 'the'. Does anyone know how/why this started? Is there a way to enforce a query?

I think enclosing the word you really want in "quotes" forces Google to not discard that term.

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#78
post #67

Given that google is the de facto standard ATM and often returns irrelevant results, I'd wager that search isn't solved. "That does not by itself mean there's room for a new search engine, but lately when using Google search I've found myself nostalgic for the old days, when Google was true to its own slightly aspy self. Google used to give me a page of the right answers, fast, with no clutter. Now the results seem i…

For me, google has become the entry point whenever I search simple stuff, like song lyrics, an address. Whenever I need real insight, I turn to other sources like HN search or even twitter

Re: Ask HN: Is 'search' a solved problem?

#80
I wish there were a search engine that could figure out the groups the search results belong to. Sometimes when searching for swift programming language, a certain singer also makes an appearance. Or when searching for physics related things, I get that Olivia Newton John song. Like I was a search engine that displays some sort of Venn diagram (not quite but it's close) that let's me hone in on my results.

To be honest, I think that I would actually want an engine that scrapes fewer sites but good sites and tries to understand them better. Also regular expressions.

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