Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires • Hacker News Board

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#111

Post by GuardianCaveman » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 11:53 AM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #109

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #13

>After a few weeks of marching and countermarching by Philip and Flamininus in central Thessaly, battle was joined (almost by accident) at Cynoscephalae, hills known as The Dogs’ Heads. Invincible on flat ground as long as its flanks were protected, the phalanx was dangerously exposed on hillsides. Highly manoeuvrable, veterans of the Hannibalic war, the legionaries wreaked a terrible slaughter. One of the big factor…

I just watched a documentary about the franco-prussian war, and they said that 'lower rank initiative' was a factor in the outcome. French weren't really wanting to fight, Prussian were. They would try everything to make a difference, even if it meant disobeying orders somehow.

Which documentary?

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#112

Post by emmelaich » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 11:59 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #43

staunch wrote: post #22

It's likely that Alexander would have taken over Italy had he lived a couple more decades. He definitely could have done it. Rome was not yet the powerhouse it became and he knew how to lead an army better than literally anyone in history. There were many Greek colonies in Italy but the whole peninsular might have become dominated by Greeks. By the time Rome got around to taking over Greece it wasn't even a contest.…

> It's a hard pill to swallow that "cowardly" surrender can often be objectively better than "stubborn" bravery One old saying around these parts of the world (Romania) can be translated roughly like this: "The bowed head doesn't get cut by the sword", which explains like at least half of our history, seeing as we've never been a major regional power while being surrounded by 3 empires for at least a couple of centur…

"The better part of valour is discretion; in the which better part I have saved my life."

- Falstaff the comedic coward in Shakespeare's Henry the Fourth

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#113

Post by i_am_nomad » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:01 PM UTC

acjohnson55 wrote: post #91

I highly recommend the podcast The History Of Rome, which talks about this conflict in some detail. I binged the almost 80 hours of it. I couldn't get enough! Then, I got sucked in to the podcast The Fall Of Rome, which is equally fantastic. http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/ https://fallofromepodcast.wordpress.com/

Agreed. The History of Rome is so good that I'm tempted to listen to the whole thing again.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#114

Post by ferkad » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:03 PM UTC

my_first_acct wrote: post #77

beat wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany had good reason to be paranoid. They were surrounded by a powerful alliance between Britain, Russia, and France, all of whom were scapegoating German ambition to help with their own political problems. Archduke Ferdinand's assassination was just a crystal falling into a supersaturated solution. When Russia demanded action from its allies in support of their ally, war was inevitable. At that point, Germany dec…

When you find yourself surrounded by enemies, you might ask yourself how it came to be that all your neighbors turned against you. An Anglo-French alliance was not inevitable; as late as 1894 it was possible to publish a novel in which England, invaded by France and Russia, was rescued by Germany [1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_in_England_in_18...

Talking about being surrounded by enemies, it might end up really badly for you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#115

Post by yread » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:30 PM UTC

staunch wrote: post #22

It's likely that Alexander would have taken over Italy had he lived a couple more decades. He definitely could have done it. Rome was not yet the powerhouse it became and he knew how to lead an army better than literally anyone in history. There were many Greek colonies in Italy but the whole peninsular might have become dominated by Greeks. By the time Rome got around to taking over Greece it wasn't even a contest.…

> "cowardly" surrender can often be objectively better than "stubborn" bravery

See also the Mongol invasion when cities either surrendered and became vassals or defended themselves, were sieged, captured and sacked. And sometimes everyone there was killed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_under_the_Mongol...

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#116

Post by akarma » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:46 PM UTC

qiqing wrote: post #108

paganel wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a hard pill to swallow that "cowardly" surrender can often be objectively better than "stubborn" bravery One old saying around these parts of the world (Romania) can be translated roughly like this: "The bowed head doesn't get cut by the sword", which explains like at least half of our history, seeing as we've never been a major regional power while being surrounded by 3 empires for at least a couple of centur…

I'm glad that the "The bowed head doesn't get cut by the sword" strategy worked well for them and led to survival for a lot of people in the region. Sometimes, though, the bowed head gets cut anyway, and surrendering in response to a promise of mercy leads to genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre I guess I'd say it's a strat that probably works more often than it doesn't, but your own mileage may v…

I just read through that out of curiosity, and it says the Japanese sent in a leaflet demanding surrender within 24 hours, or "no mercy" would be shown. The Chinese did not respond.

While Nanking was an awful massacre if not genocide, it doesn't have a narrative against the Romanian proverb.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#117

Post by mkirklions » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 12:53 PM UTC

i_am_nomad wrote: post #113

acjohnson55 wrote: post #91

I highly recommend the podcast The History Of Rome, which talks about this conflict in some detail. I binged the almost 80 hours of it. I couldn't get enough! Then, I got sucked in to the podcast The Fall Of Rome, which is equally fantastic. http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/ https://fallofromepodcast.wordpress.com/

Agreed. The History of Rome is so good that I'm tempted to listen to the whole thing again.

I listened to it twice.

Might have to do a third time now that I have learned so much more.

Given its 180, 20-30 minute episodes, this should be an indicator of how incredible the podcast is.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#118

Post by senatorobama » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #48

B1FF_PSUVM wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greek culture, which was arguably far superior. The Romans put up a valiant rearguard action against cultural aggression, what with forbidding permanent theaters, favoring the native blood sports, etc.;-) Unfortunately, pretty soon all the aristocracy was hiring the pedagogues, watching the shows and reading greek, and that was that. Umm, reminds me of something. Can't quite put my finger on it. (Plus, that uncouth…

That Macedonian lout actually reached as far as India, and his successors in the Indian subcontinent embraced Buddhism forming a very unique Indo-Greek culture.

If only they could have fought of Islam.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#119

Post by paidleaf » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

staunch wrote: post #22

It's likely that Alexander would have taken over Italy had he lived a couple more decades. He definitely could have done it. Rome was not yet the powerhouse it became and he knew how to lead an army better than literally anyone in history. There were many Greek colonies in Italy but the whole peninsular might have become dominated by Greeks. By the time Rome got around to taking over Greece it wasn't even a contest.…

> It's likely that Alexander would have taken over Italy had he lived a couple more decades.

At the height of the greek empire, it's pretty much a given that alexander would have easily conquered italy. But there was no real reason to as italy/rome back then wasn't really worth conquering compared to egypt, persia, india... I suspect had alexander lived long enough, he would have move further into india and maybe even into china. Not sure how successful he really would have been, but it's an interesting "what if".

> History is full of civilizations that fought bravely against invaders and were destroyed. It's also full of examples of civilizations that surrendered and thrived. It's a hard pill to swallow that "cowardly" surrender can often be objectively better than "stubborn" bravery.

The most poignant example of this is Catholic Europe and Islamic Khwarezmia when Genghis Khan sent his emissaries to each. The leader of khwarezmia had the emissaries tortured and killed and refused trade relations with genghis khan. The pope "surrendered" to genghis khan and established trade relations with the mongol empire. Khwarezmia got destroyed. Italy/Europe got direct trade with the largest empire in the world and got immensely rich which kicked off the italian renaissance and the rest is history.

Of course there are counterexamples as well like the english stubbornness against the spanish empire ( the destruction of the spanish armada ) and most relevant to us, the american revolution.

The key seems to be, if you are going to be stubborn against a major power, be damned sure you can win.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#120

Post by billfruit » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

One problem with the topic of Roman and Greek history is that there is too much of it to cover in a single book. I am forever looking for a single volume book that covers all the way from the founding of Rome, to the republic years, to the birth of Christianity, to the dark ages, and eventually to the fall of Constantinople, with no luck.

Sometimes even amazed that events like the Eastern Roman empire repelled Goths from Italy, and even managed to occupy Rome proper, for a few brief years, took place.