How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers • Hacker News Board

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#101

Post by EliRivers » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 9:06 AM UTC

prawn wrote: post #57

aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

In Australia, the people who look to be doing deliveries of this sort (by bike, etc) seem to be students. Actually, I can't recall ever (20 years+) having had takeaway delivered by anyone who looks over about 30-35yo. Waitstaff in restaurants are typically younger here too. In visiting the US, it's seemed that there are a lot more "career" waitstaff whereas in Australia that happens more in small owner-operator estab…

As an aside, on the subject of waitstaff in restaurants, when I was in Oz visiting family, I noticed that while in the coastal cities I saw a broad range of faces in a broad range of situations, but once I was a few hundred miles inland, the only non-white faces I saw were serving me food; they certainly weren't students. It very much felt like there were two Australias.

I expect that's true everywhere, really, in various ways.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#102

Post by OJFord » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 9:35 AM UTC

ggg9990 wrote: post #19

Matticus_Rex wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been in that category of worker and having taken gig jobs, I can promise you that the flexibility of the gig jobs really is a life improvement. I appreciate that you think you're looking out for people, but that kind of sentiment will end up actually harming people because you apparently don't know how we feel about things and can't support policies accordingly.

Not to mention, “we” is a pretty varied group. I’ve met Uber drivers who were refugees trying to survive in America and I met one who was a retired Stanford surgeon who just liked to get out of the house and meet people a few times a week. He picked me up in a BMW 5-Series.

Similarly, one of the hosts (software engineers) on _The Bike Shed_ podcast mentioned driving people around for Lyft in his Tesla just for the excuse (and justification, since it must more than cover fuel) to drive it.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#103

Post by yourapostasy » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 9:39 AM UTC

njarboe wrote: post #82

visarga wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually consider gig economy as a possible replacement for UBI and jobs, but not in this centralised form (Uber, etc). Instead, communities or social networks of people without corporate jobs could become self reliant by working for each other, to solve the community needs on the whole. When corporations take our jobs we still have our needs and lots of free time - and our needs create jobs or gigs. We can still w…

Funny how this utopian sounding idea is just a regular market economy without sales and income tax. Like the US before 1913. Too bad every time one interacts with someone else people with guns and prisons demand about 50% of the transaction. Set income and sales tax to zero and this could easily happen everywhere. It would be cool if some decent sized country would try it and use a land tax to fund the government.

Co-ops can establish private currency linked to trust scoring along many different criteria among a group-selected and group-maintained trust ontology (different types of exchange transactions can be scored along different trust metrics). Link an exchange rate to the "outside" currency that is adjusted by the high trust factor, and due to a far more frictionless trust environment, argue that a price in the private currency is 1/100 X, while the price in the outside currency is X.

Today's currencies fail to drag along with them all the logistical details market participants are really interested in about an exchange; that's why we have crude hacks like review platforms, credit scoring, insurance claims reports, etc. They're extremely information lossy exchange mechanisms, and these logistical details only hazily emerge after a long time in a fast-moving market, always a rear-view mirror picture of the market.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#104

Post by oldcynic » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:00 AM UTC

beebmam wrote: post #76

flashman wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security. This would be a form of scabbing: taking jobs away from people that don't have economic security, to give disposable income to people that do .

The point is: No one should have economic insecurity when it comes to basic needs.

Yet millions do. Now what?

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#105

Post by dbuder » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:02 AM UTC

magicbuzz wrote: post #98

FundThrowaway wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder how much the true cost is to the driver, not only are they having to pay fuel costs but the more miles a car does the less it's worth. It's almost like swap deal, swapping the future value of your car in return for cash today.

Factor in wear and tear on the seats/interior as well, that driving aro7nd by yourself wouldn’t normally occur (unless you have kids)

and the risk of having an accident and the interest on the capital expense.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#106

Post by ainiriand » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:02 AM UTC

FundThrowaway wrote: post #46

peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

Interestingly where I live Ubers are usually 50% more expensive than taxis.

Here in Dublin Uber is more expensive but taxis are really great so it is ok.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#107

Post by dahauns » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:02 AM UTC

vertexFarm wrote: post #28

peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

It's absolutely a desperation career. Those always exist somewhere in any economy, and arguably there should be options available for desperate people, but the sheer volume of them is getting sad. It's like the US has a very poor, developing country double-exposed over an insanely wealthy and advanced one, both occupying the same territory. I'm not a historian but it strikes me as very strange and somewhat new to the…

>It's absolutely a desperation career.

Indeed it is. What's new is that companies have never been this successful to sell what is basically modern day labour as cool and hip and "good for you!".

I guess it only a matter of time until we see a resurgence of night lodgers as this revolutionary new alternative way of housing.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#108

Post by ainiriand » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:19 AM UTC

tankerslay wrote: post #70

cornellwright wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is completely right. I don't think people realize how much tying healthcare to full time employment hurts people and slow innovation. It makes people stick in bad situations and disadvantages small businesses both financially and in wasted time.

Health care has leeched a huge amount of wage growth from the economy, in businesses large and small. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-09-28/health-ca...

It is an interesting way of seeing it. The way I look at it is that by not having universal healthcare, like the rest of the civilized world, is costing you a lot of money to sustain.

Take for example Lantus insulin. My gf needs about a box a month and in the US is at least $289.46. Here in Ireland without insurance you pay 40€ and we pay only 5 euro when properly insured. Actually you can apply for chronic disease card and it is free to you, those 5 euro cover all. Checking strips, insulin meter, needles, all covered. So it is not healthcare what is expensive, it is making money out of you.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#109

Post by mgkimsal » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:19 AM UTC

jessedhillon wrote: post #77

bryanlarsen wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I wasn't clear; I was imagining a scenario where people weren't forced to choose crappy options. In that scenario people who needed economic security would choose options that actually gave it to them.

Serious question: in that world, who cleans the toilets?

companies will pay "cleaning companies" $20/hr for people who end up getting paid $10/hr to avoid the entanglement of needing to 'hire' employees directly at, say, $13/hr. There's often more nuance to that scenario - basically, most companies don't need full-time cleaners. However, it still strikes me as more than a bit odd.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#110

Post by Sacho » Wed, Jun 13, 2018, 10:27 AM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #54

adrianratnapala wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I'm not so sure it's that simple. At this point I was expecting an explanation of how an similar number of low-skilled people would have jobs if these services didn't exist. Instead you give the unexplained assertion > You have this zero sum game ... Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it?

>Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it? It's the same game they're playing with AirBnB, Uber, etc. Just openly break the law and subvert centuries of built up labor laws and protections we've created to make America into a livable society, just to profit a small minority of shareholders. The players are the American people, with no choice left but live with this system because more equitabl…

You seem to be arguing that, in balance, there are more low-paying jobs where the government can convince employers to increase wages, rather than the employers closing down and looking for another enterprise to pursue. Otherwise, even on aggregate, you are actively harming low-skilled or desperate workers who are looking for a job.

Let's assume, for argument's sake, that this is true - labor laws and protections increase wages in aggregate enough to account for all the jobs that are abandoned because they are not profitable enough to pay the required wages. There's one more thing to consider in Uber's case - the regional availability for jobs. Can we assume that the low-skilled adequate-income jobs you create through labor laws would be concentrated in richer towns, richer neighbourhoods, where the industry and market can afford the higher wages? What about the poorer neighbourhoods/towns? Uber(well, taxi service) allows people there to take a job which might not be available to them otherwise, without moving to a different town/neighbourhood.