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Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

irishtimes.com

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Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#81

Post by xkcd-sucks »

dmix wrote: post #79

Anyone have any good articles/books on why Greece has never reached greatness or similar status to other EU powers since the middle ages? Especially given their influence on the enlightenment, mathematics, philosophy, and Roman culture itself - which spread throughout the western world. I've always been curious why they have stagnated so much since and been so... mediocre. I guess you could say the same about Macedon…

We have a good life at low cost in our "mediocre" home, and travel to London/New York to do all that economically productive stuff that no sane person actually enjoys

it is the next stage of civilizational evolution, look forward to it America :)

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#82

Post by mncharity »

existencebox wrote: post #8
jake-low wrote: post #5

My public-school education (in the US) definitely never taught the subject. My history classes were divided into clearly-delineated "units" of study with no overlap. "First let's learn about Mesopotamia. Agriculture, Hammurabi, etc. Now recite what you learned on a test. Good, now we're moving on. Greece. City-states, marble statues, Olympics. Another test. Moving on. Rome..." My "Earth Science" class was structured…

I normally try not to make low effort comments but this resonated so strongly with me I had to chime in with a "ME TOO." I _LOVE_ history now. I collect antique history books, just to see how perceptions changed over time. Ken Burns tops hollywood in terms of "# of films watched" by many times over. However, this only started MUCH later in my life when I started to see history as a tool, a way of thinking, of reasoni…

> History as it was taught in my early schooling was not only useless, it was utterly counterproductive

It's not just history. Physicists complain "why would they be interested in physics, when they aren't shown any interesting physics?" Chemistry education research describes precollege chemistry education content as "incoherent", leaving both students and teachers deeply steeped in misconceptions. And so on.

Consider a scale of dysfunction, from rote memorization and regurgitation, through mindless plug-and-chug, towards transferable expertise. The disruption of VR/AR is coming. What if we aimed high?

What might transformatively improved history education look like? Imagine teaching crosscutting concepts that pervade history. "History without X? That's just silly." Migration, for example. What if students, shown any slice of history, could be "ok, this looks familiar, here are some key things to look for"? A veterinary systems understanding, instead of a med student's memorized details.

When one sees a bit of history, it can be fun to reflect, how might this have been described better, with greater insight, simplicity, clarity, and accessibility? ELI5. But beyond the fun, with the tech potential for change building, there's a need for visualizing: what would success look like? Real success. Awesome success. Because we need something that matters to aim for.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#83

Post by LfLxfxxLxfxx »

dmix wrote: post #79

Anyone have any good articles/books on why Greece has never reached greatness or similar status to other EU powers since the middle ages? Especially given their influence on the enlightenment, mathematics, philosophy, and Roman culture itself - which spread throughout the western world. I've always been curious why they have stagnated so much since and been so... mediocre. I guess you could say the same about Macedon…

please, avoid abbreviating European as EU

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#84

Post by _dps »

dmix wrote: post #79

Anyone have any good articles/books on why Greece has never reached greatness or similar status to other EU powers since the middle ages? Especially given their influence on the enlightenment, mathematics, philosophy, and Roman culture itself - which spread throughout the western world. I've always been curious why they have stagnated so much since and been so... mediocre. I guess you could say the same about Macedon…

The answer is simple, and sad. We (I am Greek) missed out on the Renaissance and the Enlightenment because we were under the boot of the Ottoman empire for 400 years.

By the time we achieved freedom, we were a backwater too far behind everyone else in Europe to be competitive.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#85

Post by toomanybeersies »

jandrese wrote: post #25
afarrell wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an immigrant from the US to the UK, this isn't unique to the US. The reality is that there is so much history out there that it is very hard to get a solid overview of it which weaves together into a coherent narrative. There's just not enough time. Its why independent resources like youtube and video games which actually care about history are so important. (Its still reasonable to be annoyed by the way. My perso…

IMHO the biggest problem with the way history is taught in school is the need to test on it. This means making kids memorize names and dates and individual events so that they tend to lose the forest for the trees. It's hard to get a holistic view of the situation when you're focused on the smallest details.

It's not the testing, but how it's being tested.

Grading people on how well they can remember dates is easy. Did they get the year something happened correct? One point.

Actually requiring students to write something that requires critical analysis makes it a lot harder to grade tests.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#86

Post by toomanybeersies »

jake-low wrote: post #5

My public-school education (in the US) definitely never taught the subject. My history classes were divided into clearly-delineated "units" of study with no overlap. "First let's learn about Mesopotamia. Agriculture, Hammurabi, etc. Now recite what you learned on a test. Good, now we're moving on. Greece. City-states, marble statues, Olympics. Another test. Moving on. Rome..." My "Earth Science" class was structured…

It's not just the USA that his this problem. It seems to be a global problem.

I think that a large part of it is that we like to break up the curriculum into little compartments, rather than treating it as a series of interrelated components. There's history to be learned in science, and there's science to be learned in history, for example. But we treat science and history as two completely separate entities.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#87

Post by selestify »

ng12 wrote: post #40
lou1306 wrote: post #10

Irony was a double-edged sword in this case. Sure, the Greek city-states were now subject to Rome. On the other hand, Roman civilization was deeply affected by Greek culture, which was arguably far superior. Horace said it best: Graecia capta ferum victorem cepit (once defeated, Greece conquered its savage captor)

One of my favorite tidbits was that it was considered very fashionable to have a well-educated Greek slave -- they were often more well-versed in literature and philosophy than their masters.

How does an educated slave happen? Does someone somehow throw money at educating a slave child? Or does an educated person get enslaved?

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#88

Post by ckarmann »

selestify wrote: post #87
ng12 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my favorite tidbits was that it was considered very fashionable to have a well-educated Greek slave -- they were often more well-versed in literature and philosophy than their masters.

How does an educated slave happen? Does someone somehow throw money at educating a slave child? Or does an educated person get enslaved?

Both situations happened. Rich families had slave and non-slave educators who would teach to the family children and to the slave children. A lot of slaves in Antiquity were given the occupation of shopkeepers, clerks or even lawyers, so they needed to be educated.

Also the situation of slaves was quite fluid: you could be a slave by birth, but you could have been captured in war and conquest or you could have simply failed to pay your debts. Skilled slaves often had the possibility to earn some money and buy back their freedom.

On the other hand, there were also unskilled slaves, often worked to death in mines or fields.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#89

Post by asveikau »

dmix wrote: post #79

Anyone have any good articles/books on why Greece has never reached greatness or similar status to other EU powers since the middle ages? Especially given their influence on the enlightenment, mathematics, philosophy, and Roman culture itself - which spread throughout the western world. I've always been curious why they have stagnated so much since and been so... mediocre. I guess you could say the same about Macedon…

Isn't that somewhat the whole story of today's southern europe? The benefits of modernity probably means they live better than they ever did, but most southern european states are to some varying extent living in the shadow of former glory. Perhaps a lesson in the gap between economics and worthiness or merit.

Re: Rome vs Greece: a clash of empires

#90

Post by acjohnson55 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #12
emodendroket wrote: post #2

I don't know about little-known.

Schools vary, but usually this conflict isn't really presented much in survey classes. The highlights of education on Greece usually focus on Alexander the Great for a day or two, phalanx, the various figures of Athens, Athens vs. Sparta. Rome usually is some chat about the origin myth, "they were a republic", the Punic Wars, specifically Hannibal, Ceasar, transition to empire, random facts.

Probably a decent number of people learn about the conflict in passing at least when the fall of the Macedonian satrapies is discussed, as well as the final conquest of Sicily, what with Archimedes' death and all.
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