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How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

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Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#51

Post by roenxi »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #44
roenxi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gentleman in the video has a couple of good points (and it is likely that Uber will eventually get regulated). That being said, the premise here seems to be confused on a number of issues. + "Unsafe everything, assaults [and] kidnappings" are in fact already illegal. More regulation will not make them more illegal. Claiming we need a taxicab commission to enforce basic laws is a non-sequitur of breathtaking scope…

+ "Unsafe everything, assaults [and] kidnappings" are in fact already illegal. More regulation will not make them more illegal. Claiming we need a taxicab commission to enforce basic laws is a non-sequitur of breathtaking scope. Indeed they are already illegal, however adequate checks are not done on those who want to be people driver. That effect of not actually doing due diligence does allow much higher incidence o…

> Indeed they are already illegal, however adequate checks are not done on those who want to be people driver. That effect of not actually doing due diligence does allow much higher incidence of bad actors in positions of power.

You're going to need actual statistics for that. Claiming that we can detect a class of people who are acceptable citizens except under the specific circumstance that they are acting as a chauffeur isn't a reasonable position. Either they are dangerous and should be locked up or they aren't. Their status as a taxicab driver isn't going to be relevant. They would be just as dangerous if they were unemployed, if not more so.

> Bullshit. They have one of the hottest stock request IPOs out there. A year ago their estimated market cap was $50B. Now its estimated at $70B. Sure doesn't sound like a no-profit company.

Pretty sure the profit line is in the red for 2017. You might find yourself on the wrong side of the facts here, even if they don't conform to your worldview.

> Hollywood accounting.

Always willing to be corrected, but Hollywood accounting is a fairly specific practice where they claim specific projects made a loss so they don't have to pay the actors, but the profits still appear in a different part of a controlled conglomerate.

What you are alleging is tax fraud, which is also illegal as it happens. And, again, nothing to do with regulation of the taxi industry, in America I believe it is an issue for the the IRS. Companies in competitive markets have a lousy track record of unilaterally deciding their profits need to be higher. Its investors believe Uber can make a profit, but there isn't any evidence of that yet. They are taking a pretty substantial risk.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#52

Post by FundThrowaway »

maxxxxx wrote: post #5
lynnah wrote: post #2

Disheartening. Interesting article. We need to get healthcare uncoupled from jobs.

The gig economy is already bad enough for workers but in the US it's even worse due to the health care situation. We should get rid of any advantages corporations have over individuals like health insurance.

Do you have the scourge of zero hour contracts in the US? Basically a person can be contractually obligated to work when demanded but with no guarantees of minimum hours or salary.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#53

Post by flashman »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #39
peterwwillis wrote: post #8

The gig economy is literally a product of a lack of economic security. As I've mentioned before, if suddenly people had enough money or assistance that they didn't need to gig to make ends meet, businesses like Uber and Lyft would have no more "independent contractors". They'd probably fold or have to raise prices above that of Taxis.

It should be the other away around. The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security. If you've got food & rent covered some other way but want some extra cash for luxuries, it's nice to have the option to pick up a few gigs. Much of the marketing for Uber drivers implies this fantasy. Maybe BI will make this fantasy a reality.

> The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security.

This would be a form of scabbing: taking jobs away from people that don't have economic security, to give disposable income to people that do.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#54

Post by aphextron »

adrianratnapala wrote: post #31
aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

> But I'm not so sure it's that simple. At this point I was expecting an explanation of how an similar number of low-skilled people would have jobs if these services didn't exist. Instead you give the unexplained assertion > You have this zero sum game ... Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it?

>Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it?

It's the same game they're playing with AirBnB, Uber, etc. Just openly break the law and subvert centuries of built up labor laws and protections we've created to make America into a livable society, just to profit a small minority of shareholders. The players are the American people, with no choice left but live with this system because more equitable uses of this capital aren't perceived to give investors "10x returns". There used to be an agreement in the US between Capital and Labor that struck a fair deal, and this agreement has fundamentally eroded. What benefits and rights that did still exist in jobs up to this point are gone for most people. The result is a zero sum game, where human suffering is converted to shareholder profits.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#55

Post by briandear »

aphextron wrote: post #54
adrianratnapala wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I'm not so sure it's that simple. At this point I was expecting an explanation of how an similar number of low-skilled people would have jobs if these services didn't exist. Instead you give the unexplained assertion > You have this zero sum game ... Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it?

>Which game is it? Who are the players? What is zero-sum about it? It's the same game they're playing with AirBnB, Uber, etc. Just openly break the law and subvert centuries of built up labor laws and protections we've created to make America into a livable society, just to profit a small minority of shareholders. The players are the American people, with no choice left but live with this system because more equitabl…

Tell me about taxi drivers and labor law. I used to drive a taxi and I paid $110 per day to rent the taxi, paid the gas, if I damaged the car, I paid for that out of my pocket and then I get to try and hustle rides from the airport where I had to pay for ticket for the right to pick up a passenger — then, due to airport fixed rates, I might drive that person to the other side of town and make $65.

Driving a taxi was horrible. Anyone that laments Uber has never driven a taxi.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#56

Post by fanzhang »

aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

Are you joking that the low wages are flowing through to VCs?

Some people wonder whether the VCs will even make out their invested money in Uber/Doordash cases. I've heard that in many cities Uber/Doordash/friends are subsidizing the marginal order in order to grow.

Make no mistake, currently the marginal gains are flowing through to customers. We like to blame faceless large corporations, the "others" for the fall of liveable, stable, wages. But the fault in some sense is in our selves. We, the individual customer, are driving this dynamic by being huge sticklers for the lowest price possible.

We individuals talk a good game about a fair livable society, until it comes around to saving $1 on your next Uber / Doordash fare.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#57

Post by prawn »

aphextron wrote: post #16

Have you eaten in at a take out place lately? It's literally nothing but ageing, disheveled looking people who could barely operate a smartphone running in and out desperately, working either Uber Eats, Doordash, etc. stacking orders, getting stressed out over maybe making $3. It's the most depressing fucking thing I have ever seen. Maybe there's an argument to be made that these people are better off than they would…

In Australia, the people who look to be doing deliveries of this sort (by bike, etc) seem to be students. Actually, I can't recall ever (20 years+) having had takeaway delivered by anyone who looks over about 30-35yo.

Waitstaff in restaurants are typically younger here too. In visiting the US, it's seemed that there are a lot more "career" waitstaff whereas in Australia that happens more in small owner-operator establishments, or very premium restaurants.

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#58

Post by abvdasker »

brohoolio wrote: post #4

What’s going to happen to gig wages when the economy hits a recession?

If there is anything beautiful about Uber it's that the marketplace maintained in each city is a relatively pure expression of supply and demand.

A recession in which unemployment rates increase would probably lead to an increase in drivers (supply) from the displaced employees and a decrease in people with disposable income to take Ubers (demand) leading to a reduction in cost per ride and the associated driver wages (unit price). Given the sheer number of countries Uber operates in, the company has probably already seen this happen more than once. What happens to driver wages and Uber as a company in the event of a global recession is harder to predict since that would be unprecedented for the company.

Maybe having Uber available as a source of income during a recession would be a good thing for the recently unemployed?

Re: How the gig economy is making life harder for North American workers

#60

Post by bryanlarsen »

flashman wrote: post #53
bryanlarsen wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be the other away around. The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security. If you've got food & rent covered some other way but want some extra cash for luxuries, it's nice to have the option to pick up a few gigs. Much of the marketing for Uber drivers implies this fantasy. Maybe BI will make this fantasy a reality.

> The gig economy should only be for people that have economic security. This would be a form of scabbing: taking jobs away from people that don't have economic security, to give disposable income to people that do .

Sorry, I wasn't clear; I was imagining a scenario where people weren't forced to choose crappy options. In that scenario people who needed economic security would choose options that actually gave it to them.
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