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Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

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Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#101

Post by wallflower »

whopa wrote: post #88
idoh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be hard to be a competent lawyer without going to law school. Good law schools change the way you think, and that's not something that you can get self studying. It is true that you can pass the bar without going to school. In fact law school does not prepare you for the bar exam. Most people take a supplemental course after law school just to prep for the exam. I am pretty sure that a reasonably bri…

I've heard this expressed many times from various people: law schools love engineers because they already know how to think analytically and don't have to be taught that. This is independent of whether they learned any form of engineering in school or not. As far as the bar exam being a joke, if that's true, that's broken. If the more important thing is going to law school for 3 years, then why put so much emphasis o…

> law schools love engineers because they already know how to think analytically and don't have to be taught that

I went to engineering school as an undergraduate. In my opinion, the biggest value of a traditional engineering education is that you learn how to solve problems. This works very well in the software industry where X is supposed to do Y but does Z.

First year: Traditional coresciences. Physics, Chemistry. Very structured problem sets (well defined problems, well defined answers)

Second year: Core engineering classes. Statics, Dynamics, Materials. More specialized problem sets, less definition.

Third year: The hardest year. Labs, beginning of long-term group projects. Problems are now more general. Doing a homework problem now is much more difficult because if you get off track early - you don't get the textbook correct answer. Lots of engineering labs where you have to collect a lot of raw data and use a cookbook of formulas to write the analysis.

Routine now on tests to not solve many problems in time allotted. It's really a test of your problem solving process now. The point is you could probably solve all of the problems given enough time but in the real world you have time constraints so the faculty is helping you adjust your analytical skills to be quicker.

Fourth year: This is the year where you work on a Capstone project. Very big problem with some constraints. All the design is up to you. It's your problem to solve.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#102

Post by elblanco »

cynicalkane wrote: post #83
elblanco wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who the heck in their right mind spends $100k (on average) on an undergraduate degree?! My local state university offers a decent education for really matter where I get my Western Civ course credits?) you can shave another $12k off for a grand total of $32k. Hell, you can an A.S., a B.S. an M.S. and a PhD for less than $100k and have plenty of drinking money left over. $100k for an education...ridiculous.

Yeah, the Good Will Hunting fantasy about how you don't need a good education, just natural intelligence and motivation. Maybe that's true for some people, but to say that a good liberal arts school is worth the same as a community college is completely absurd. And it's more true, not less true, for a class such as "Western Civ".

I wasn't aware that people go to one school for their engineering classes, then haul ass across the country to a liberal arts college for their history electives. That notion seems absurd. :)

If you want to major in History (and enjoy the really bad pay-scale that comes with that), you'll probably get the best education at a liberal arts school, but the cost-benefit analysis is even worse.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#103

Post by Jun8 »

Look, actually it's quite simple:

1. Finish your undergraduate, because in most societieis there's a big stigma associated with not having a college degree.

2. While doing that, assess yourself. If you think you've got the entrepreneurial balls, don't get a degree. It's a sure way to (slightly) higher salary but wastes time at a crucial stage in your life, i.e. the pre-wife, pre-kids time.

3. Problem is, you can assess yourself theoretically only up to a certain point. You've got to try. So, set a time limit, e.g. 1 year, start a company and give it a shot. Then, go back to (2) and reassess. Steps (2)-(3) may be repeated a couple of times till you converge.

I traveled the path of least resistance since (i) there was no one around to give me the above advice and (ii) I was in a another country where doing a start-up was rare at an early (or late) stage.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#104

Post by matwood »

samatman wrote: post #100
kyro wrote: post #25

It's funny, because even people like Zuckerberg eventually had to pull in experts with extensive educational backgrounds to help in developing the company. And if you look at any billion dollar company, those with degrees have played and continue to play a critical role in said company's growth and success. While I do agree that with a field like computer science, real world experience rather than educational backgro…

While this is true, and I respect your decision to go to medical school, consider this: In Japan, which has the best life expectancy of any nation, doctors are trained for three years after high school. That's it. I believe a case can be made that the entire pre-medical curriculum is a scam, one that wastes years of life from some of our most promising young people and rakes in billions of education expenses that dri…

Life expectancies != a countries medical care performance.

For example, no amount of medical care can overcome the US obesity problem.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#105

Post by joe_the_user »

luminarious wrote: post #84
jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

If you do the same thing everyone else is doing, you will fail. If you work really hard, you will perhaps fail to a lesser degree than everybody else. But the only way to win is to play your own game.

If you play a typical game in normal fashion, you lose when losing is typical.

If you play reasonably well in a game where modest success is typical, you will likely get modest success.

Most people who play absolutely their own game lose too.

Most big successes play a game where winning is typical and play it better than average.

There's a "sweet spot" of self-expression and following the crowd but it's still fairly close to the crowd.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#106

Post by eof »

If school is free, it's definitely worth it. But to take 60-100k out for a good school, and to get the maximum value, you are talking 4 years of time and effort plus 1-3 likely years salary.

In those same 5 years, if you're willing to struggle, take on a little debt, apply yourself to learning whatever it is you were going to be learning in school, you'd likely come out ahead.

Maybe I underestimate the opportunities that are opened to you when you get your bachelors. Obviously, the connections you get from an Ivy league school are priceless. The work ethic you learn from very motivated individuals is also priceless.

But the reality is the vast majority of people going to school aren't going to a top tier school. They aren't going to bust their ass, they are going to get into debt, and they aren't going to come out of it a super solid prospect.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#107

Post by joe_the_user »

jasonkester wrote: post #81

I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star. Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption" solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes. Lots…

Only a bit off little topic, I'd say...

The current problem isn't that people drop-out with the hope of becoming Mark Zuckerberg. The problem is that currently school offers rather very little for an extremely high price.

I know someone who dropped out of a psychology PhD program with $100K debt. Perhaps she should have dropped out sooner.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#109

Post by dasil003 »

ahoyhere wrote: post #96
dasil003 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your answer, though I was actually gonna say the opposite. They're both wrong! First of all this aim high stuff is nonsense. Facebook did not start with the goal of toppling MySpace. Microsoft did not start with the goal of running on 95% of machines. Twitter did not start with the thought of becoming a billion dollar company. These companies get their through consistent cycles of ambition and execution. There…

1000x YES on the "aim high stuff is nonsense." It's cargo-culting, pure and simple. Copying the way an accidental empire was built is as silly as building a straw plane in the hopes that the real plane will come back. Or buying Aeron chairs and a foosball table. As Basho once wrote, "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." That said, can't agree with you on the statement that a lif…

Careful there. I put "lifestyle" in quotes due to my own rejection of the prevailing VC-driven silicon valley disdain for lower-growth businesses. FWIW I also feel like HN is pretty well balanced on this issue as well (at least compared to SV at large).

However ambition is ambition, let's not redefine the word as a means of affirmative action. I never made a value judgement that every business should have endless ambition, or that getting what you want from a business and being satisfied is bad; I merely stated that the moniker "lifestyle business" is defined more by the ambitions of those running the company than any inherent quality of the business.

Re: Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School

#110

Post by dasil003 »

faramarz wrote: post #7

There still is a stigma for putting university on hold or dropping out. Trust me there is. All you guys (Arrington included) in the valley are in a bubble, which is fine, because it works there but the rest of society doesn't feel the same (good or bad). Anywhere else, your family, your friends, your colleagues, they will not take you seriously until you finish your degree. The stigma will only die when every single…

Of course there is a stigma. If you are out of high school and aimless then the most sensible thing is to go to more school and at least be directed to learn some valuable stuff. If you're just farting around with computers all the time, of course most older people will not understand that, and they'll assume you don't know what it takes to be "successful" (because they probably don't), and they will be disapproving. And given their experience and wisdom that is totally logical.

However if you are one of the people who has the courage to follow your dreams, then you shouldn't care what the stern majority thinks. Society will never nurture unique personalities, if you want to do something great in life you need to look beyond your family (and local community, especially if you live in a small town) to find your own mentors and your own way.

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