Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

news.ycombinator.com

741–750 of 968 posts

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand. On the one hand you're saying that early employees should "demand market comp" and on the other you're saying that equity basically doesn't matter (and if you feel this way, it doesn't really make any sense to be joining a startup anyway). Are you conflating "compensation" with "salary"? "Market comp" for a good engineer with several years of experience in the Bay Area is something like 250k…

> Early-stage companies should offer sufficient equity such that their employees should in expectation earn at least the same as they would at a public company. That's the joke! Nobody comes remotely close to offering enough equity that their total comp is equivalent! Imagine a company that just raised a $1M seed round on convertibles at a $6M valuation cap. Now say they offer an "extremely generous" 2% equity packag…

Yes, I mostly agree.

There's one nuance that I've been thinking about lately that I haven't seen anyone ever point out before, which is that high volatility will make options worth more than they are on paper.

Here's a thought experiment: imagine that there are two employers on the market. One will always pay 200k/yr guaranteed and you can choose to work for them at any time for this wage. The other pays 100k/yr plus one Coconut per year, and Coconuts are currently worth 100k each. So far these are equivalent monetarily. But now let's add the stipulation that after one year, the price of coconuts has a 50% chance of going to 0 and a 50% chance of going to 200k each. Which would you choose?

The expected value of each of these job offers is still equivalent (after 4 years of working at each, you'll have 800k in expectation). But you should definitely take the second one. Why? Because after one year, if coconuts drop to 0, you can just quit and join the first company. Then you have a 50% chance of 100 + 200 + 200 + 200 (coconuts to 0) and a 50% chance of 300 + 300 + 300 + 300 (coconuts to 200) which comes out to 950k, which is better than sticking with either company alone.

This thought experiment fascinates me because it clearly shows the extra value that up-front stock grants have. The point is that you have some protection from downsides in the form of switching jobs, but no similar cap on the upsides, and the higher the volatility of the stock the more value this provides.

I'm not sure what the numbers look like when you view them through this lens, but it does mean that an equity grant of 2% of a 6M company should trade off for more than 30k/yr.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#742
post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand. On the one hand you're saying that early employees should "demand market comp" and on the other you're saying that equity basically doesn't matter (and if you feel this way, it doesn't really make any sense to be joining a startup anyway). Are you conflating "compensation" with "salary"? "Market comp" for a good engineer with several years of experience in the Bay Area is something like 250k…

250-350k is low for Google and FB. It's more like 400-500k if you are senior, 500-700k if you are staff. This is including RSUs

I'm not really interested in arguing about these numbers, it's not really relevant to my point. I was basing this off of https://www.teamblind.com/article/google-engineer---total-co... where 250-350 includes the majority of L4 and L5 engineers. Based on this your numbers look off by one level or so, at least for Google. But again, I don't think this is very important for my point.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Foobar coding challenge seems to work really for Google, for whatever reason. Go to Google and search "python list comprehension" in a bunch of different tabs. Make sure it's exactly that. If you have an extra 's', or if you do "list comprehension python", it's not gonna work. If you go through the first 3 levels, then they'll ask you to send in a resume. Admittedly, I only know results from the perspective of st…

In 2018, this is kind of sad, judicious combinations of generator expressions and list comprehensions is so much more interesting (use lazy and eager evaluation where it matters)! Anyway, I did that search in 20 tabs and didn't get anything.

ISTR that only works from the USA.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#744

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

TLDR: 30 years experience, I learned: don’t go work for a SV style startup. Be a founder, even if you have no experience. Don’t take VC money for more than %10 of your equity in total. Better off, right out of school, founding a company and failing than working for a startup, especially if they take VC. It’s lopsided against the founders too. They might walk away with big checks but the risk is too high. This is the…

> Don’t take VC money for more than %10 of your equity in total.

Good luck man.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#745
post #663

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't quite understand. On the one hand you're saying that early employees should "demand market comp" and on the other you're saying that equity basically doesn't matter (and if you feel this way, it doesn't really make any sense to be joining a startup anyway). Are you conflating "compensation" with "salary"? "Market comp" for a good engineer with several years of experience in the Bay Area is something like 250k…

250-350k is low for Google and FB. It's more like 400-500k if you are senior, 500-700k if you are staff. This is including RSUs

rough numbers on http://levels.fyi

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#746
post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's rubbish is thinking that people don't have personal responsibility. If someone who can "easily" get 6-figures and the luxurious benefits of a BigCo decide to work for a startup instead, then that's their choice and there's no moral judgement needed.

that's their choice and there's no moral judgement needed Sure. And when you hear VC backed companies whining that hiring is soooooo hard, now you know why.

Could you please stop posting low-substance, high-acid comments to Hacker News? You've done it a ton, it damages the site, and we've asked you repeatedly not to. Plenty of people are arguing civilly and substantively for views similar to yours in this thread. It's not hard!

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#747
post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

depends on level / YoE most of the time, theres breakdown for FAANG companies at http://levels.fyi

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a founder can't afford employees at market rate, they shouldn't be hiring yet. That's a little bit too strict, and as such is not a position founders are likely to accept. Sometimes they need employees before they can pay market rate, and market rate is pretty steep for a senior engineer in the Bay, for example, and most other areas startups are heavily recruiting. It's reasonable to offer generous equity for ea…

> Sometimes they need employees before they can pay market rate, But you don't get to have something just because you need it. That's not how it works. You need to raise more money, so that you can afford to pay the employees. It's not fair to make the employees act as unofficial investors in your company, and then give them a deal that the real investors wouldn't accept. > giving out 0.01% even to earliest employees…

>> giving out 0.01% even to earliest employees

>I hope that's an exaggeration and no one actually goes that low. (EDIT: Re-reading I think you actually meant 1%, not 0.01%?)

What I witnessed as guidance from a top-tier VC to its portfolio companies: 1% for employee #1, then ramp downwards for each employee: .07%, .05% etc and very quickly you reach .01%

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#749
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

Most of the employees are certainly making less, becomes pretty obvious with the http://levels.fyi salaries per level (only starts going above 400K after L6 @ Google & FB)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#750
post #631
post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you absolutely won't, unless you luck out and end up on a good team. Big companies are notoriously bad about rewarding hard working and talented engineers. That is in fact one of the main reasons people leave them (including yours truly).

If startups don't reward engineers and neither do big companies, then what does?

Selling own labor in capitalism won't generally get you very rich.
Post reply on HN