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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#641

Post by alfredallan1 »

dmode wrote: post #114
ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Make a reasonable estimate - what do you think is the total number of people earning in the range of 400K at FAANGMUA? How about in terms of percentage of engineering staff?

Do bear in mind that it takes almost 10 years of steady relevant experience to get to that level (L5+). As another commenter points out, 8 years of solid experince only made an L4.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#642

Post by docker_up »

mariusz331 wrote: post #216

I'd like to recommend something: discourage 1-year cliffs in vesting schedules. I recently joined a BigCo where your stock vests monthly as soon as you start. I felt comfortable accepting that offer because I knew I could quit without leaving money on the table if I hated it. Before BigCo, I was at a YC startup for 8 months that I disliked working at, but felt that I needed to hit the 1-year mark for the equity. That…

Sounds like Cap Table hell. If you're only there for 3 months, why should you get rewarded when chances are you didn't contribute anything to the company? I think a 1 year cliff makes even more sense for a startup than an established company because you really should contribute something before hitting the cap table as someone with employee options.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#643

Post by freyir »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #499
toephu2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me but the median senior software engineer at Microsoft does not make $400k/yr in TC. Same goes for AMZN. There are only a handful of companies that pay $400k/yr for senior software engineers and MSFT ain't one of them (facebook, and google do however). Go checkout Blind if you don't believe. Or ask your friend at MSFT. And like someone else said, first level managers are more like 250-350k range, not 400k, ye…

Anecdotally, I know plenty of 66s and 67s at Microsoft that are pulling $300-500k in TC. Microsoft’s stock rise has also made this decade extremely nice for grants. Course, with the average house going for $1 million in Kirkland, they have to spend it.

If you’re making $300k-$500k a year, a $1M house is extremely attainable.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#645

Post by freyir »

throwaway7551 wrote: post #596
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Just to add another data point. I'm a Google L5, and make nowhere near $400K. My RSUs would have to quadruple in order to even get close to that. I think your idea of a normal L5-6 salary here is a vast overestimate.

Or you’re getting underpaid relative to your peers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#646

Post by freyir »

colordrops wrote: post #445
jensvdh wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you work at Uber/Airbnb/Whatever out of that 400k total comp 250k is just paper money.

naw, the people I know work at netflix, apple, amazon, google, spacex, microsoft, tesla, etc

From what I’ve heard, SpaceX pays pretty poorly. Extremely long hours for below-average aerospace salary. Surprised to see you mention them, but maybe they’ve improved lately.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#647

Post by rifung »

curun1r wrote: post #545
rifung wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

One thing to consider is the runaway stock market. It has a huge effect on total comp. Yes, Amazon has lower base salaries than FB/GOOG, but they've always been pretty generous with RSUs and their stock is damn high right now. There are no doubt many engineers there making those $400k figures by virtue of having been granted RSUs when they were half as valuable as they are today. It may take a true outlier to get hir…

> Yes, Amazon has lower base salaries than FB/GOOG, but they've always been pretty generous with RSUs and their stock is damn high right now.

Actually my salary was very similar at Amazon when compared with Google and my friends have similar salaries. The problem with Amazon is that their vesting schedule is very heavily weighted towards the 3rd and fourth year.

It's true that if you stay the entire time, that might work to your benefit since by that time the stock value may have increased greatly, but I'm not sure how much that should count since you could in theory just sell your RSUs and buy Amazon stocks if you wanted to.

My experience is that total comp at Google is much higher than Amazon but again this may be anecdotal?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#648

Post by scarmig »

alfredallan1 wrote: post #641
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Make a reasonable estimate - what do you think is the total number of people earning in the range of 400K at FAANGMUA? How about in terms of percentage of engineering staff? Do bear in mind that it takes almost 10 years of steady relevant experience to get to that level (L5+). As another commenter points out, 8 years of solid experince only made an L4.

If you're hired into the role directly.

Someone coming in straight from college can realistically expect L5 in 6-8 years. Back in the day, you used to get basically kicked out if it took longer than that.

Even coming in as an L4, you can plausibly expect L5 in 2-3 years.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#649

Post by joshuamorton »

throwaway7551 wrote: post #596
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

Just to add another data point. I'm a Google L5, and make nowhere near $400K. My RSUs would have to quadruple in order to even get close to that. I think your idea of a normal L5-6 salary here is a vast overestimate.

Are you in an eng ladder and in the bay area?

Because if not you're RSU grant is grossly low (since I'm an L3 who isn't fully refreshed and if my grant quadrupled, I'd be nearing 400K, and my grant isn't exceptionally high).

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#650

Post by jgibson »

alex_young wrote: post #634
KirinDave wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that "$400k in base salary and max bonus?" or is that "$400k a year in base salary, max bonus, considering benefits and stock grants which are taxed heavily unless they're held 2 years?" I very much dislike the habit of people not explaining what goes in the knapsack.

RSUs are taxed at vesting. There is no tax advantage in holding them after they are released.

You still pay tax on the gain when you sell though (assuming there is any gain). Depending on how long you hold them there will be normal income tax or long-term gains tax
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