Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

571–580 of 968 posts

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#571

Post by orangecat »

akavi wrote: post #130

So, I work at a startup. But, to echo what literally everyone else has said: The money is better at big companies. There are exceptions, but you almost certainly won't work for one of them. You will make more money at Google or Facebook or Netflix than you will at all but the luckiest choice of startup. Note I didn't say "best" choice or "most successful" choice. Gotta get in small, and exit big, which, no matter wha…

I strongly agree with all of this. I made the same decisions that you did, and while it worked out well (we rolled between 90 and 95 on https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/), it was clearly a negative EV play. I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have a solid record at an established company (so that I could easily return to a similar job at any point), or if the income reduction would have had a material impact (which basically implies no kids and no plans to have any in the next few years, no mortgage or student loans, and no health issues).

I kind of feel that to a first approximation, recommending against being an employee at a start up is the right advice.

Absolutely.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#572

Post by GoatOfAplomb »

joshe wrote: post #138

This is such a great area to work on. The equity side is pretty rough. Founders are very sensitive about disclosing important information about company performance. They are sensitive about disclosing the cap table. Some will share info with investors that they don't share with employees. And they are sometimes trying to pitch optimistically and leaving out items that don't fit the narrative. So you end up with a ver…

Agreed re: transparency. I've had startups refuse to share what even the current valuation was (edit: even when actually presenting an offer!), let alone who has preferences and convertible notes and such. If I'm taking a substantial cut in liquid comp compared to BigCorp, I can't just treat equity as a happy little upside. I need to understand exactly what terms it is subject to.

As for equity amounts - if I have to assume your startup will grow at least 10X, without any further dilution, in order to break even on comp with a public corp, it's not a very compelling offer.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#573

Post by netheril96 »

ryandrake wrote: post #57
nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

But successful exit of a startup is also outlier. It is only fair if we compare outliers to outliers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#574

Post by pm90 »

dunpeal wrote: post #539
toephu2 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So? That's one engineer. I said top 20%. You act like the median engineer is pulling 400k at FB. They aren't.

The median employee at FB is making $240k. We can safely assume the median engineer is making more than that. I never claimed that median engineer is making $400k. This entire thread is about the senior engineers and their payout after 4-5 of working at a company like FB vs at a startup. If you could do good work as an engineer at a startup for 4-5 years, pulling $400k at FB is very realistic for you. With the median…

> I'm not sure why you're trying to prove me wrong, but let's face facts: even that absolute median of $240k that includes non-engineers is better than what most engineers would pull at a startup.

I think there has been a common disbelief among many commenters on this forum about engineers making that high compensation. There really isn't any upside to trying to convince others of this reality. Its easier to mock you here than to face the facts that many are losing quite a lot in opportunity cost by not working in SV. So its natural you will face a lot of animosity here.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#575

Post by rayshan »

I think the biggest problem is transparency, which leads to wrong expectations.

As a 3-time startup employee, people always told me I should expect a pay cut by going to a startup. But how much? When I received a Series A startup offer and a FANG offer at the same time, I couldn't evaluate them side-by-side because I had no idea how much startup equity was worth. I negotiated hard and got surprising results, which left me wondering: what did I leave on the table? What about my colleagues who didn't negotiate?

As an ex-founder needing to hire a team of 6, I had no idea how to pay. We didn't have money for compensation consultants, and tools like Glassdoor and HiringPlan wasn't around. It wasn't until I joined my current team I realized how the top VCs and startups do it - by setting a compensation philosophy and have access to market data. For example, your early stage startup can pay 30th percentile on salary and 70th percentile on equity, and you consistently apply this no matter the type of role.

This is why we built HiringPlan (https://HiringPlan.io) at LTSE. It's a free visual compensation planning tool, and we believe the first one with built-in market data used by top VCs and startups. Founders use it to figure how much to pay folks in terms of salary and equity, and whether they're treating diversity and inclusion with fair pay. Even employees and candidates come to learn what their roles and levels are worth, and use hard data to discuss compensation with their managers.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#576

Post by pm90 »

praptak wrote: post #154
ryandrake wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

Startups require crazy hours and solid dedication. If you put that into a career at a big software company, even with average talent, you will reach the level which yields that kind of money.

No you absolutely won't, unless you luck out and end up on a good team. Big companies are notoriously bad about rewarding hard working and talented engineers. That is in fact one of the main reasons people leave them (including yours truly).

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#578

Post by seattle_spring »

jensvdh wrote: post #437
colordrops wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm in a bubble but everyone around me is making at least 400k total comp. Doesn't seem that uncommon in California.

But if you work at Uber/Airbnb/Whatever out of that 400k total comp 250k is just paper money.

Not really... If you have 250k / yr equity, your salary (plus bonus) is usually north of 200k at those companies.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#579

Post by l8again »

People are forgetting that a start-up is inherently an unnatural place for employment. Given a choice, a rational decision will always be to work with the big companies, specially if those big companies are among the FAANGMU (or whatever abbreviation it is). And it's not only the money. The money is good no doubt, but it's the brand recognition. I know several folks who went to work at Amazon on a pay cut for a couple of years, and jumped way ahead on their next gig with a badge of honor of being an ex-amazon employee.

Now, the question is will you leave that job for a start-up. It really depends on your situation. Have you already been an employee of the big co? Then, sure go for it. Your employment at FANGMU has pretty much guaranteed you employment at middle tier companies with a good salary. No start-up has that kind of clout.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#580

Post by toomuchtodo »

bitcoinmoney wrote: post #140
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Entirely accurate. At a startup, I expect to make ~$100k/year, have mediocre insurance and work life balance, and underwhelming equity ( Unless you’re a founder, I actively steer colleagues away from working at a startup. The sense of accomplishment, impact, or whatever the feel good term is, isn’t worth shorting yourself on significant comp for years (while founders and funds are getting almost all the upside). Edit…

How many years of experience do you have and what industry? Just trying to get a picture of your profile.

18 years in tech, last 6 have been focused on Infra/DevOps.
Post reply on HN