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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#541

Post by ranrotx »

lossforajob wrote: post #465
rifung wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

I keep hearing about the FAANG companies and I have to wonder what can I do to make my proactiveness pay off in getting into the running for job interviews? I feel like it's easier to get their attention as a CS student seeking internships than as a self-taught mid-level developer (which I am). I have interviewed on two separate occasions by Amazon, and only contacted by Microsoft (submitted some forms, but they neve…

The signal to noise ratio in the hiring process is horrible. I work at one of the FAANG companies and do a lot in the hiring process. I can tell you that getting a phone screen off of a resume that you submit is a crap-shoot. There are people applying to positions they aren’t qualified for, people applying to positions they have no idea what the role is (blast a bunch of resumes out and see what sticks), and genuinely qualified people who suck at writing a resume (and probably go unnoticed as a result). As a result, there are probably a lot of good candidates that don’t even get looked at because they are lost among the noise.

My best advice is find someone who can submit your resume as an internal referral. Those carry a lot more weight (at least where I work). However, make sure that person is someone you know and is comfortable “vouching” for you. These referrals are looked at more favorably since the thinking is that it’s somewhat of a known quantity.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#542

Post by qaq »

_m96l wrote: post #380
inimino wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they don't want it, or don't believe in the startup, what are they doing there?! It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors. If the market were rational, compensation would be more in cash and less in kool-aid, the importance of work-life balance would be understood even at the early stages, and the idea that a startup has some special kind of magic--wh…

> It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors. I worked in early stage startups. There is absolutely a strong sense of a small, intimate team working hard for a common goal. Nobody is claiming or treating it as "a job". When the founders were asking the whole team to regularly work entire weekends before launch, nobody said it was "a job". > If the market wer…

take 14hours/day multiply by avg. going rate for contract work in SV and it stops making sense even for very avg devs.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#543

Post by manigandham »

IggleSniggle wrote: post #506
manigandham wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's rubbish is thinking that people don't have personal responsibility. If someone who can "easily" get 6-figures and the luxurious benefits of a BigCo decide to work for a startup instead, then that's their choice and there's no moral judgement needed.

Partial agree. Folks also shoulder responsibility for knowingly scamming young folk that don’t know any better yet.

It's not a scam...

This isn't an elaborate con involving lies and deceit, it's a pretty clear setup and is offered in writing before you start which you have to accept. There are 1000s of articles now about working in startups and how equity works, along with fair ratios. The research is minutes away and is no different than checking the paperwork for any other part of your employment.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#544

Post by ryanobjc »

akavi wrote: post #130

So, I work at a startup. But, to echo what literally everyone else has said: The money is better at big companies. There are exceptions, but you almost certainly won't work for one of them. You will make more money at Google or Facebook or Netflix than you will at all but the luckiest choice of startup. Note I didn't say "best" choice or "most successful" choice. Gotta get in small, and exit big, which, no matter wha…

What if you were giving up $100-150k a year? Would that move your needle?

Or what if you were actually giving up $200k a year?

Yes, money isn't everything, but that's no reason to let someone take advantage of your excitement.

I am seeing a lot of people doing the devils work here, depressing engineering wages with arguments against higher pay. The VCs dont need your help, why are you helping them?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#545

Post by curun1r »

rifung wrote: post #426
dmode wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FAANG + Microsoft + Uber + Airbnb hire thousands and thousands of engineers in the Valley and Seattle every year. 400K is L5-L6 salary (senior engineer, first level manager). There are a TON of engineers making that money. They are not really outliers, and FAANGMUA is also not really outlier considering Google itself has 80K employees and Amazon and MSFT have over 200K employees.

I work at Google, used to work at Amazon, and had an offer from Microsoft. From my experience, Google/FB pay much more than Amazon and Microsoft if we're talking about total compensation so I think it's a little more rare than what you're saying. I don't think it's that easy to hit L5 either. My teammate is amazing and had like 8+ years at Microsoft before joining Google but was hired as an L4. For most SWEs, L5 woul…

One thing to consider is the runaway stock market. It has a huge effect on total comp. Yes, Amazon has lower base salaries than FB/GOOG, but they've always been pretty generous with RSUs and their stock is damn high right now. There are no doubt many engineers there making those $400k figures by virtue of having been granted RSUs when they were half as valuable as they are today. It may take a true outlier to get hired today and immediately be making that kind of salary, but it doesn't take much of an outlier for someone with a few years of grants to get that high.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#546

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

brendonjohn wrote: post #536
saryant wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's where I am. I'm pushing $300k total comp at Twitter as a senior SWE out in Colorado. Before this I was first employee of a startup that eventually sold to Google. Even if I'd stuck around for the acquisition I'd have gotten $0 from my stock options—employee options were wiped out completely. Why put up with that bullshit when a big publicly-traded company will reliably deposit large sums of money into my bank…

Speaking as someone that has stock options... how did your employee options get wiped out?

The usual way is that all the investors, who hold preferred stock, get paid before all the employees, who hold common stock. If there's not any money left over after the preferred holders get paid, the value of employee equity is 0.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#547

Post by shamino »

shamino wrote: post #293
kwindla wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a startup founder and will happily say that if you are an engineer, in Silicon Valley, in 2018, and you are maximizing for income, then you should not work at an early-stage startup. I did some hand-wavy math, here: https://medium.com/@kwindla/what-kind-of-silicon-valley-comp... Dan Luu did some, too, here: https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/

I'm happy you say this, and I wish it was more well known, even if obvious. People join early-stage startups for the potential bucks. I'm not saying that's a good reason, but I'm saying most graduates, who are not as educated about the world, will join a startup for the money upside. Being honest like you are is not the same as admitting there is some degree of deception in the culture about how well off you'll be as…

I mean, just look at the tagline on the website being advertised by OP:

https://www.workatastartup.com

"Join the next Airbnb, Dropbox, Reddit, Stripe, or Instacart". Reminds me of Ben Affleck in Boiler Room.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#548

Post by cheeze »

majormajor wrote: post #540
aphextron wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

I've had unlimited PTO at a place with double digit employees, and one with four-figure employees. These issues around having vacation days "approved" seems like a function of your bosses, not your PTO plan. If you have to get your time approved, it doesn't matter the size of the bucket you're pulling from. My experience is much more "hey I've got a couple weeks off coming up, by the way, I'm thinking of [x, y, z] fo…

I agree with this, but I think that there is something to be said for the cadence at which others take vacation. I think it's more accepted at megacorp that you'll use most of your earned vacation and that's fine. As a result, everyone does it.

At a lot of places that have unlimited vacation, I'd bet that people take less vacation overall, and part of that is the status quo/what is currently acceptable.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#549

Post by kwindla »

dunpeal wrote: post #441
kwindla wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Three thoughts just based on my own personal experience working at startups for ~20 years: Many, many people are committed to jobs for reasons other than money, across all walks of life. This is often true for engineers, too. Few experienced engineers in SF (who are also US citizens or have green cards) are locked into any job. If you're making $750k/year at Google, the Apple or LinkedIn or Salesforce or Facebook wil…

> Many, many people are committed to jobs for reasons other than money, across all walks of life. This is often true for engineers, too. Of course. But there's a reason why SV begun this expensive tradition of giving engineers substantial equity: the realization that startups and other ambitious companies must align employee incentives with company success. It's possible that the employee will develop some irrational…

Again, I definitely agree about early stage employees having substantial equity.

But I would also not call dedication to a job for reasons that go beyond compensation "irrational."

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#550

Post by paulie_a »

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

I personally would absolutely never take shares/options in a company, just pay me for the work I do. You can work at a startup and have fun and get extremely great compensation instead of betting on the gamble of eventually getting a small amount of payoff.
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