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Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

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Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#371

Post by drb91 »

Illniyar wrote: post #101
drb91 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to state the obvious, there are things to optimize for other than compensation (like happiness); ~$100k/year provides a comfortable life and saving opportunity in many (most?) parts of the country.

yes, but startups aren't really very good at optimizing for other things. The stressful nature of startups are usually bad for happiness. Startups are really good at providing two things - a sense of being able to affect change and working on something novel/new (assuming you actually go with a startup that does something new)

I’ve been reliably surprised with how many startup employees enjoy some level of stressful problem solving. Maybe it overlaps with being a workaholic to some degree?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#372

Post by biztos »

acconrad wrote: post #129

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

What's an "early employee" for you? (That is, who gets "a lot more equity?")

I ask because I've noticed with some high-dollar acquisitions a lot of times "engineer #50" makes his/her "F-You Money" on the acquisition, but having been "engineer #2" and "#4" and even "#1" (sadly, no big exits) I am skeptical that #50 took on much more risk or contributed more than, say, #200.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#373

Post by seige »

acconrad wrote: post #129

I was the first engineer at a TechStars startup that did have a successful exit (I was there about 5 years before the exit). If there is something I want YC to know, it's this: You helped create the culture of founder empowerment. You have the power to evolve that narrative to those that sacrifice as early employees. Tell the world that early employees deserve a lot more equity. Tell the world that early employees co…

THIS.

Its all about the founders. The VCs don't care, the acquirer doesn't care and largely, the industry doesn't care. I have been at 3 startups and they all feel more like "come change my world" instead of "come change the world".

Equity is so lop-sided that its almost laughable.

I earlier thought that a successful startup exit actually carries weight on one's resume but that's only on the founder's resume.

Nobody cares in SV if you were an EE at a non-unicorn startup with a reasonable exit. After an exit happens, founders still get to keep their badge of honor and propel their careers, not the EEs.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#374

Post by faang_emp_1 »

jonmb wrote: post #306
dunpeal wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These numbers are realistic for any senior engineer working there for over 3-4 years.

Are these engineers at Facebook/Google/etc. working the typical 40 hour work week or more like 60-80?

Obviously a throwaway account, but I work at Facebook, on an infrastructure team. I average ~45 hours/week, except for the week I'm oncall, which is about every three months. I probably work 60 hours that week. I get in early (7:30am) and leave early (3 or 3:30), and sometimes I'll review diffs at night, but normally my laptop stays in my trunk when I'm at home.

I work hard when I'm at work, and really focus. I don't do a lot of the extra-curricular stuff that you can easily spend your time on. I'm an L6 and last year earned just north $450K with decent performance reviews. I have damn near a million dollars in unvested $FB RSUs, too, so there's almost no chance I'm going to leave for anywhere that won't match that with equally liquid public shares.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#375

Post by manigandham »

gaius wrote: post #327
inimino wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do founders get over 10x early employees? Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant funding comes through) and they have 100x the impact that an early employee does on the success of the company. If an early employee doesn't work out, the founders just replace that pe…

Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Absolute rubbish. Considering the opportunity cost, lost benefits and so on compared to a BigCo an early stage employee is easily going to be 6-figures in, and probably working 80+ hours a week. All so the founders can toss them a few scraps from the feast. Meaningful equity participation or big-company pay a…

What's rubbish is thinking that people don't have personal responsibility. If someone who can "easily" get 6-figures and the luxurious benefits of a BigCo decide to work for a startup instead, then that's their choice and there's no moral judgement needed.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#378

Post by diehunde »

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

How much is that per month after taxes? I'm not from the US and here normally we describe the salary after all taxes and monthly.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#379

Post by sidlls »

manigandham wrote: post #363
sidlls wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment." The risk part of this isn't remotely true in many cases,or rather it's offset by so many other benefits accruing to them. Founders generally are drawing at least a small salary and, in this context (YC/VC funded) they are not necessarily risking much if any of their own capital. Moreover they are benefittin…

You have a very narrow view of startups if you think that's how they all operate. Many many companies never raise money. Many founders are unpaid, or just paid the bare minimum legally allowed. And numbers alone do not tell of the significant social and psychological pressures while employees can always quit and go work somewhere elsewhere. Even successful acquisitions don't guarantee riches to founders and that's co…

"while employees can always quit and go work somewhere elsewhere."

This is an exaggeration at best. For the vast majority of employees there is a lead time to begin employment at most places. Typically this will be a minimum of one month (interviews + decision + org readiness to onboard).

By the way, it applies equally to founders as you describe (anecdotally I've seen a number of founders get regular jobs while they wound down a business).

"Left with nothing" except social connections and, exactly like the employees they had to fire when the business failed, a need to generate income from another source.

Founder lionization is absurd.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#380

Post by _m96l »

inimino wrote: post #330
dunpeal wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because founders take at least 100x the risk of an early employee, and 100x the personal risk and commitment. Simply untrue. Many early startup employees work intense 12-14 hour days. Are you saying founders work 1,200-1,400 hour days? Early startup employees also risk about the same as founders. Maybe a little less, financially. > Founders generally aren't getting paid (at least until revenue or significant fundin…

> If they don't want it, or don't believe in the startup, what are they doing there?! It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors. If the market were rational, compensation would be more in cash and less in kool-aid, the importance of work-life balance would be understood even at the early stages, and the idea that a startup has some special kind of magic--wh…

> It's a job. Early employees working 12-14 hour days are not doing themselves or the startup any favors.

I worked in early stage startups. There is absolutely a strong sense of a small, intimate team working hard for a common goal.

Nobody is claiming or treating it as "a job". When the founders were asking the whole team to regularly work entire weekends before launch, nobody said it was "a job".

> If the market were rational [...]

You keep repeating that, but it is a sort of truism that doesn't stand up to even cursory scrutiny.

High-acceleration startups are, by definition, trying to reach ambitious goals quickly. They're not about providing a nice work-life balance to their members.

If a startup founder pitched a VC with "we all have great work-life balance, and it's our goal to stay this way!" she wouldn't get a dime.

Startups are intense, and have intense expectations.

The reality is that startups need people to work harder, sacrifice more of their lives, for a few years, in a hope of a big payout, which is where the equity component comes in.

This formula worked well in SV for decades, but recently the VCs and founders got greedy, and said "hey, why should we reserve millions of dollars for our early employees, if they'll work just as hard for empty promises of such amounts instead"?

That's the current situation, as reflected in this thread.

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