Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#281

Post by noir_lord » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

roguecoder wrote: post #195

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

What this suggests, capitalistically-speaking, is that there is insufficient supply of developers and the supply that does exist can be most effectively employed by large companies. Is the problem that startups are not an efficient way to use scarce developer resources, because there are too many of them producing too little value? Or is it that the supply of developers is too small? A YC apprenticeship program, with…

There is also the developer !== developer problem.

I've worked with terrible developers, developers I'd trust to maybe write a blog for my cat, developers I'd trust on an important system but they all called themselves developers.

The old joke used to be "You know what they call the guy with the lowest passing grade in his medical school? Doctor".

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#282

Post by joejerryronnie » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

snowmaker wrote: post #103

ronilan wrote: post #37

One of the “weak” points a startup has is the brand perception. Some-role at FANG sounds more impressive than same-role at a no-name startup. Even the startups themselves like to brag that they were started by alumni of brand name employers, rather than alumni of other startups. So, in what concrete way can you shift this? There is no easy solution, but you can try and follow the same route you did for startups. No-n…

That is a great idea! I agree the brand perception is a big issue for startups, and that is a clever and unique thing that YC could do to help.

    STARTUP X!
  [powered by YC]

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#283

Post by dabockster » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #226

jboy55 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just be warned, a startup often has the promise of more autonomy, but there are plenty of startups run by ego-centric micromanaging wanna-be engineers. Be careful equating, 'being able to talk to the CEO' as autonomy, you may find yourself having to explain your decisions/code to people who's engineering skills are 'being able to convince a VC to give them money'. You'll also probably not tackle 'large problems' but…

> but there are plenty of startups run by ego-centric micromanaging wanna-be engineers. This times 1000. Too many stories to tell, especially in SV.

Also,

> you may find yourself having to explain your decisions/code to people who's engineering skills are 'being able to convince a VC to give them money'

> you'll also probably not tackle 'large problems' but hack and slash a Node/Django/React app into meeting an MVP

Those hit way too close to home for me. I made the mistake of joining such a business when I was fresh from college and broke. The only good thing that happened is that I got some savings out of it. Issues included broken spaghetti code, hacking together MVPs with enough fancy graphics to impress clients (faking it all the way), and having to explain to my tech illiterate boss why I couldn't "just fix it" on the harder problems.

Oh, and the micromanaging is real too. It can wreck your mind to the point of needing professional help.

The real kicker was that it was all on an indefinite "contract" (1099 but you sit in the office like a regular worker - I already filed the IRS contest forms) with low pay and zero benefits. Never working at an early startup again.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#284

Post by hashkb » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:04 PM UTC

brittohalloran wrote: post #271

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #22

Having not worked in the Valley or a startup, I can say the biggest con to me is a lack of stability. You can get a job at BigCo or even MediumSizedButBeenAroundTwoDecadesCo and be reasonably sure you'll still have a job... as long as you want to work there. But with a startup, either they run out of money and you lose your job, they pivot and don't need you and you lose your job, or they get acquired and you very li…

Super interesting idea. One of the cons could be that having your employees not personally invested in the outcome of your venture could make them less likely to be "fully committed" (i.e. long hours, going above and beyond). You might be worried about higher levels of apathy -- "if this doesn't work I still have a job". If the business works, I'm thinking the transition from the fund swat team to "real" employees mi…

> "fully committed" (i.e. long hours, going above and beyond).

Regular comp does that if the company can afford it. Startup equity is there so companies that can't, can offer early hires the "maybe money". Pay 200k and you'll get fully committed employees.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#285

Post by lcfcjs » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:05 PM UTC

- Lack of stability - Equity instead of salary - Long hours - Wearing multiple hats (hate having to do QA, Operations, even some product development)

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#286

Post by alexbecker » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

ronilan wrote: post #37

One of the “weak” points a startup has is the brand perception. Some-role at FANG sounds more impressive than same-role at a no-name startup. Even the startups themselves like to brag that they were started by alumni of brand name employers, rather than alumni of other startups. So, in what concrete way can you shift this? There is no easy solution, but you can try and follow the same route you did for startups. No-n…

+1 to not dismissing prestige, although I'm not sure I agree with this plan. Prestige is easy for some people to dismiss, but it can be a very big deal to others, especially (in my experience) in Asian cultures. My girlfriend's family still doesn't believe that I quit Google to work at a startup--they assume I got fired--because who would willingly give up that prestige?

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#287

Post by dunpeal » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

jonmb wrote: post #257

swimorsinka wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 to this. 10 years ago you couldn't make 400K at Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. Now you can. Startups made a lot more sense when your opportunity cost was 50-150K per year.

Honest question since I'm not familiar with the area - who is making 400k at Microsoft or Facebook? Not the typical mid-level software engineer, I'd assume. Are these product leads or head engineers making the 400k?

These numbers are realistic for any senior engineer working there for over 3-4 years.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#288

Post by modeless » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:07 PM UTC

I was employee 18 at a startup recently acquired by Google. Maybe not super early, but I was able to make big contributions that had a large impact on our eventual acquisition. It was a fun ride but I won't be doing it again for one main reason: startup equity distribution makes zero sense for early employees. Founders get 20+ times the equity. Yes they take more risk and work harder, but they're not taking 20 times the risk or working 20 times as hard.

Also there's a bizarre reluctance to show employees the information they need to value their equity, like number of shares authorized/outstanding/issued, existing liquidation preferences, or the whole cap table. Although it worked out fine for me this time, I will never again take equity compensation in a small company without access to the cap table.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#289

Post by vladimirralev » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

deedubaya wrote: post #78

Pro: Remote friendly (sometimes). Startups can't pay the big $$ for good talent, so they're more open to remote employees. I've worked for a few startups where I never met anyone else on the team face-to-face, worked from our corners of the world, and we built cool shit.

Con: Startups almost always screw the remote workers on stock and legal terms. I have yet to see a positive story. Illegal worldwide industry-wide non-competes, forward-dated options (if any), remote expensive jurisdictions, wrong financial info, etc.

So yes, remote is a sweat deal if you are getting paid cash, but keep in mind most of these founders were laughed out of the room in their own HQ city's startup community.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#290

Post by nunez » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:08 PM UTC

neutrino7 wrote: post #224

akhilcacharya wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the Big5 have tons of locations. Amazon in particular has tech centers in places like Phoenix and Detroit, while Google is in Chicago. Microsoft is even in Fargo! Unless you want to be a digital nomad I guess. Then it’s probably not ideal, but I do know some fully remote positions exist at the L6 level at Amazon.

> But the Big5 have tons of locations Name one Big5 job in the entire U.S. south. Or at least one that pays as well as them. There aren’t any.

Facebook is in Austin; Amazon is in Dallas