Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#271

Post by brittohalloran » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #22

Having not worked in the Valley or a startup, I can say the biggest con to me is a lack of stability. You can get a job at BigCo or even MediumSizedButBeenAroundTwoDecadesCo and be reasonably sure you'll still have a job... as long as you want to work there. But with a startup, either they run out of money and you lose your job, they pivot and don't need you and you lose your job, or they get acquired and you very li…

Super interesting idea. One of the cons could be that having your employees not personally invested in the outcome of your venture could make them less likely to be "fully committed" (i.e. long hours, going above and beyond). You might be worried about higher levels of apathy -- "if this doesn't work I still have a job".

If the business works, I'm thinking the transition from the fund swat team to "real" employees might be difficult as well, probably at a time when you need to be firing on all cylinders.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#272

Post by jzl » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 8:59 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #57

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

Take that view with a huge grain of salt. Nobody is denying that someone, somewhere is making $400k as a software engineer, but we are talking outlier employees at outlier companies. You’re not getting this as a medium level rank and file engineer, or at a non-FAANG company. This whole “software engineers make $400k” trope seems to have taken on a life of its own. Every time salary comes up here, these guys come out…

400 is starting to push into standard deviation territory but 300 (total comp) is absolutely right in the center of the bell curve for a mid-level engineer (not a rock star), from everything I've seen and heard both first and second hand. In the valley, anyway.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#273

Post by Jach » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:00 PM UTC

mlthoughts2018 wrote: post #25

Open plan offices and general lack of a quiet, contemplative, professional working environment is the hugest con to me, even huger than the compensation issues pointed out by other commentors. I would look to start-ups to be leading the effort to improve industry practices for software development ergonomy and human-centric working spaces (i.e. focus on privacy, quiet and individual customizability). But instead, sta…

I review the Joel Test occasionally, even if some of the items are kinda dated. It's amusing how both big companies and startups consistently fail two of them (and the test says if you're at 10/12 or lower there are serious problems).

    8. Do programmers have quiet working conditions?
    9. Do you use the best tools money can buy?

Startups could out-compete larger companies here by providing both shared working space and private space, but they don't. Similarly for one of the tools, development hardware, if all you're providing is a macbook pro and maybe a monitor... well I'm sure Apple will significantly upgrade it any year now. Meanwhile those of us who like Linux distros (or, god forbid, Windows after disabling all the crap) can have quite a bit of power on the go. My current (big) co gives everyone a desktop and a laptop, it's nice to have both. You might quibble if they fully pass #9, but at least they make an attempt.

"... programmers are easily bribed by giving them the coolest, latest stuff. This is a far cheaper way to get them to work for you than actually paying competitive salaries!"

Salaries are such a hot topic, startups unable to match need to differentiate from what the big players are doing in a better way across many dimensions at once, not solely the nebulous "more control of the product direction".

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/08/09/the-joel-test-12-s...

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#274

Post by jzl » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #6

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

The other goal of "unlimited vacation" is that companies don't have to pay out banked vacation days upon end of employment.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#275

Post by DoreenMichele » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

snowmaker wrote: post #261

DoreenMichele wrote: post #245

And where there are cons, what would fix them? My understanding is insurance and benefits are a weak area. The internet ate my really long comment. Suffice it to say, if you haven't already, I will suggest you (YC) talk with an Aflac agent.

Do you have any specifics on what issues you have seen?

I don't have any experience with working at a startup. What I do have is 5+ years experience working at Aflac some years back. I no longer work there.

They sell supplemental insurance, not major medical. They don't do co-insurance. They pay cash directly to the policyholder.

Not long before I left, they came out with a disability policy that could be purchased with as few as 4 employees and working as little as 30 hours per week. My recollection is this was groundbreaking.

They can provide access to benefits at no cost to the company.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#276

Post by wolco » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:01 PM UTC

DogOnTheWeb wrote: post #231

swyx wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $800 million dollar startups die all the time is this the case? i actually don't know that it is.

(Sample size of one) I worked at a unicorn startup five years ago in the bay which no longer exists. Anyone who bought the options -- and the company was very cagey on providing cap table info -- was left with nothing.

This...

Even if the company is sold at a high value chances are the payout will not be worth the risk. Unless your shares come with a board seat never buy the options in a private company because the shares are worth literally zero unless a secondary market exists.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#277

Post by alexpetralia » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

dv_dt wrote: post #222

One thought experiment is to take your hypothetical market rate, and calculate the opportunity cost of working at the startup. Then think if you had that cost over say 5 years, in hard cash, would you take it and invest in the equity of that startup over other options?

Great way to think about it. It is a concentrated, illiquid equity investment.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#278

Post by john_moscow » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:02 PM UTC

I think the biggest problem with being a non-founder in a startup is that in 2018 that doesn't make you a key employee anymore. This leads to a bunch of problems, like worthless equity, relatively low pay, poor benefits, etc, but it essentially originates from a change in the business model.

In the older days when startups were aiming to be profitable by solving a new problem in a way that would attract paying customers, while competing in terms of efficiency, the contribution of an early employee to the bottom line was more noticeable, so the startups had to treat them better.

As of 2018, most startups aren't trying to solve a profit-generating problem that couldn't be solved with the tech from 5 years ago, but can be reliably solved now. Instead the VCs expect to get paid through an acquisition/IPO when either a BigCo, or the public buys into the hockey stick growth without scrutinizing the sustainability of the underlying business model (or being confident that the founder will find a way to pivot). So instead of being a cog in a BigCo machine, you are an extra in a VC-funded movie. And I don't think it's going to change without a major correction in the general public's expectations from tech.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#279

Post by dunpeal » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

aphextron wrote: post #6

nieksand wrote: post #2

Just a few cons.... The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. Equity grants for early…

>The big players have drastically pushed up developer comp. The "maybe" money that might come from a best-case startup exit isn't holding up well against the RSUs of the big players. I have friends pushing total comp north of 400K / year at the usual suspect companies. Over a five-year-span-till-liquidity your "maybe" money is competing against a near-guaranteed $2M in comp. I can second this. But it's not just the m…

> "unlimited PTO" nonsense

Absolutely. I've seen multiple startups with this ridiculous policy. The net effect of it is that people hardly ever take any time off, and certainly less than employees with more sensible policies, since taking any time off directly reflects on your moral character.

Re: Ask HN: Pros and cons of working at a startup in 2018?

#280

Post by ibz » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 9:03 PM UTC

DogOnTheWeb wrote: post #231

swyx wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $800 million dollar startups die all the time is this the case? i actually don't know that it is.

(Sample size of one) I worked at a unicorn startup five years ago in the bay which no longer exists. Anyone who bought the options -- and the company was very cagey on providing cap table info -- was left with nothing.

> in the bay which no longer exists

:)