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How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

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Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#111
post #88

"We have mothers tell us things like, 'I need to do a chore very quickly, and if my toddler tries to help, he makes a mess. So I'd rather do it myself than having them helping,' " she says. I see some women do this but exchange the "toddler" with "husband". The husband will ofcourse see this and not try to help in the future because he feels insecure or just happy that she is happy doing it herself. It isn't too late…

If you don't help your wife around the house you're not a "husband", you're a "man child".

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#112
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the implication, but I think you're at least somewhat wrong, and I still thought it was a great article. Specifically, I think that I'm going to be taking this idea to heart with my own child. The reason I think you're wrong, btw, is that even my son (2 yrs old), who is certainly not lacking in things to do, seems to be very interested in helping us around the kitchen. Every time I'm cooking, he comes to…

I was just noting what I felt was an important detail that the framing was glossing over. I think to some extent you are reading in things I did not intend. This will vary some depending on the child and the circumstances, but children tend to be interested in what other people are doing. I wouldn't characterize it as trying to be helpful per se. I would characterize it as trying to engage with others in some way and…

> I was just noting what I felt was an important detail that the framing was glossing over. I think to some extent you are reading in things I did not intend.

Totally possible! And for the record, I found your post great food for thought as well!

And thanks for the details on your children - good to hear. We're expecting a daughter so I'll soon have a chance to see how it works with 2 children :)

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#113
post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

You are right, but "western" as its used colloqially doesn't really mean anything.

The term "western" has multiple origins, but the two dominant ones are: (1) European (especially british) terminology, from 17th-19th century history and political science (2) Cold War concepts where the world is divided into 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries depending on political alignment.

West European narratives from the late British, French & Dutch Empires goes roughly like this.

(1) Classical greece is the "craddle" of (western) civilization. (2) Greeks spread "the light" worldwide with alexander, What he called hellenization they call westernisation (3) Rome eventually took over. (4) The pure values of the west empire was degraded by the decedant east. The (wrestern) roman empire fell and the dark age began. (5) The light of the west was rekindled in the Renaissance (6) The torch passed to west european empires, who dutifully picked up the white man's burden, spreading civilization and light to the world again. (7) britain passed the torch to America, which is Athens' true succesor.

This is the basic narrative running through most 17th-19th century anglo-american history and philosophy. It's comically self serving. So bogus it's hard to know where to start.

First, Greece was never "Europe," in any sense that includes britain, germany, etc.. Europe remained tribal and "uncivilized" (non-urban) for 2,000 years after the Classical Greek civilization spread far and wide. Greece (and after that, Rome) was a place the western periphery of the Mediterranean and middle eastern cultural complex. This region including lots of long lived, large & complex civilizations: Egyptian, Bablylonian, Hittite & Persian empires. Advanced Phoenician city states. Greece's urban culutre fits squarely into this wider culuture. Nothing western about it.

This would not have been controversial to plato, alexander or julio cesar. They looked to egypt, persia and the "east" as the predecessor and contemporary civilizations. They credit Egypt constantly. They didn't know or care about europe as we think of it, and certainly didn't consider themselves part of it.

Second.... this kept happening in every age. The European dark ages actually ended when Europeans regained cultural contact with the "east," via the arab expansion into western Europe and the crusades.

Basically, the concept of "western civilization" is a farce. There is no such thing. It's a false narrative about the origins of european civilization, giving it an indigenous origin. It was just to embarrassing to admit that Europe was tribal until 600-700 years ago while the east had been "civilized" for thousands of years.

Later on (now) it gets equated with democracy, rule of law and such, the political ideals of western europe and the US. None of these originate in the west. None of these are even traditional in the west. American democracy is no more descendant from Athens' than a hundred other ancient city states' political systems. They just happened to know about athenian democracy, through an accident of history.

These days, "western values" has come to mean feminism, liberalism, pluralism, gay rights... Anyone over 30 can tell you that these are not traditional western values. These are modern, cosmoplitan values and they thrive in the places which are not traditional.

TLDR, Western values roughly mean descendant from greece, according to silly 18th century british intellectuals. Mexico is (culturally) more descendant from Greece than the US or Brittain. Basically, it's BS. Western doesn't mean anything.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#114
post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

> Mayans and I are by now part of the greater western world "Western" is used as short-hand for the cultures "that have some origin or association with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration, colonization, or influence." Modern Mexican culture could be argued to be "Western". It would be difficult, on the other hand, to arg…

> Linguistically, the use of "USian" strikes back at your argument. There is no ambiguity when someone says "I am American," as people from only one country identify themselves as such. Using the term "USian" thus explicitly rejects one's affiliation with the United States.

There is ambiguity to me, because I consider myself as American as the US does. What does America mean to the US? It usually means things like the beauty that Luis Miguel sings about,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL3u7qU_09w

new opportunities for immigrants, such as for Salma Hayek's or Shakira's ancestors, and freedom, such as when Morelos wrote "prohibit slavery forever, as the distinction of caste, being all equal and only vice and virtue distinguish an American from the other."

The good associations that the US has with "America" are also associations that the rest of the continent has with the term too. Thus, I want to share the broader term. I and all Mexicans are American first like the US, and more specifically Latin American. A Latin American is a kind of American, not something completely different.

I use the term American more broadly to point out our shared affiliation, not to exclude the US. But to someone who wants a shared term all to themselves, asking them to share feels like exclusion to them.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#115
post #11
post #7

Resonating with a point in the article about telling kids "you're not involved in this task", I've noticed that my American neighbors are quite reluctant to allow their kids to use knives, light candles, fill glasses, and some cooking tasks that could result in a lot of mess. As what looks like a consequence those kids are rarely able to help get dinner on the table when they come over. An uncharitable explanation wo…

My mum told me something important once: Your kids want to help. Let them. Kids are something you should live with and involve in your life, not something you designate to an hour of “kids time” once a day. Both me and my sister started learning to cook when we were 5 or so, we helped with dishes, we set the table, we learned about cleaning up after pets. Of course we both tried to purposefully forget it when we were…

My 5yo daughter has taken to using a perfectly child-sized book on Cupcakes (Peggy Porschen Cupcakes). She can pick exactly the one she wants from the pictures and then helps to make them. The latest batch of chocolate cupcakes produced by her and my partner (who's a professionally qualified baker) were some of the best I've ever tasted. Above any that my partner has made on her own.

They've done this fairly regularly (a batch every couple of months) for the past couple of years.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#116
post #7

Resonating with a point in the article about telling kids "you're not involved in this task", I've noticed that my American neighbors are quite reluctant to allow their kids to use knives, light candles, fill glasses, and some cooking tasks that could result in a lot of mess. As what looks like a consequence those kids are rarely able to help get dinner on the table when they come over. An uncharitable explanation wo…

There is a work bench in my daughters class - kids aged 4-6. I has metal saws, hammers, nails.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#117
post #83

I found it infuriating to read this article and realise there was no mention of Dad. Maybe his absence is an overlooked part of it? As a father, I do chores with my kids, and the trope that only mothers and house-wives do chores is really tiresome. Maybe there's another way to get kids involved in chores - make sure Dad doesn't get away with not being involved, too. The family that cleans together (that means Dads to…

If your wife is a house-wife (i.e. doesn't have any other job, while you have a fulltime job) why would she not just do all the chores that she can do?

Because she does not want to. Then either you do it or if you too don't want to do it just leave it undone.

Most chores are optional anyways.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#118
post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

> Mayans and I are by now part of the greater western world "Western" is used as short-hand for the cultures "that have some origin or association with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration, colonization, or influence." Modern Mexican culture could be argued to be "Western". It would be difficult, on the other hand, to arg…

>> There is no ambiguity when someone says "I am American," as people from only one country identify themselves as such.

Well, they have the right to do so when talking among themselves. When talking within an international audience, good manners suggest sticking to definitions that are internationally agreed upon.

America is a continent, and US citizens are not more American than any Canadian, Argentinian or Peruvian is.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#119
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mayans and I are by now part of the greater western world "Western" is used as short-hand for the cultures "that have some origin or association with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration, colonization, or influence." Modern Mexican culture could be argued to be "Western". It would be difficult, on the other hand, to arg…

>> There is no ambiguity when someone says "I am American," as people from only one country identify themselves as such. Well, they have the right to do so when talking among themselves. When talking within an international audience, good manners suggest sticking to definitions that are internationally agreed upon. America is a continent, and US citizens are not more American than any Canadian, Argentinian or Peruvia…

good manners suggest sticking to definitions that are internationally agreed upon

Who came to the agreement that "American" is only a denonym for someone who lives in the continents of North and South America and doesn't refer to someone from the US?

Look at how people from the US are referred to in some international languages: un américain, Amerikaan, Amerikaner, amerika-jin, Amerikano, etc.

America is a continent, and US citizens are not more American than any Canadian, Argentinian or Peruvian is.

Someone telling a Canadian they aren't American is a completely different concept from referring to someone from the United States of America as an American. Quite frankly, your argument doesn't follow.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your wife is a house-wife (i.e. doesn't have any other job, while you have a fulltime job) why would she not just do all the chores that she can do?

Because she does not want to. Then either you do it or if you too don't want to do it just leave it undone. Most chores are optional anyways.

If you are a house-wife or -man doing chores related to your home and family is literally your job. How can you argument with "don't want to"?
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