How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores • Hacker News Board

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#71

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:17 AM UTC

rangibaby wrote: post #68

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

I agree with you. I mostly see "Western" used as a synonym for "NATO". In addition to Mexico, there are countries in Europe (Russia) or democracies with huge economies (Japan, ROK, India, Brazil) that aren't described as Western.

> I mostly see "Western" used as a synonym for "NATO"

I think of it as the corpus of cultures drawing heritage from the Ancient Greeks and Romans. If the Homeric epics have a home in your culture, it's Western.

That said, the term is muddied enough to be somewhat useless for general discussion. Particularly given how it's been co-opted by racist elements in American politics.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#72

Post by M_Bakhtiari » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:29 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

I see your point. I'm also puzzled by how Americans seem to talk about Spanish-speaking people as if they are some kind of race.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#73

Post by cerealbad » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:31 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

You are American (Latin). Western means not-communist, since almost the entire world favors collectivism over individualism, almost no culture is 'western'. The default position is socialism, in the case of the North America colonies (post revolution) the model of ancient Greece was re-imagined to create a new type of country, so far it has been highly successful yet not very equal. this means if you work hard you can provide for yourself but if you work smart you can leapfrog a lot of hard workers and if you work hard and smart you can become filthy rich and start manipulating the entire system. the checks and balances and freedoms in place are supposed to limit some of the economic imbalances when a ultrarich guy like Rockefeller with Standard Oil or Bezos with Amazon wants to make himself defacto king. If you want a comparison with ancient Rome, Trump is Crassus, and the outrage and resistance to his nomination and presidency hints at an established dynastic patrician class of American politicians who refuse a common businessman to infiltrate their halls of power.

If you prefer to be a competitive individual who is only compelled by their own inner morality to help others you are western. If you prefer to live in a society where everyone thrives and there is broad equality, safety and harmony then you are of an eastern mind. The argument of having both or a mixture becomes a contentious historical and political issue, having your cake and eating it too. China is making a strong attempt at blending these two ideas into a new political theory, spearheaded by Xi Jingping's One Belt One Road Initiative and the addition of new member states to the SCO (Shanghai Cooperation Organisation).

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#74

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:40 AM UTC

cerealbad wrote: post #73

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

You are American (Latin). Western means not-communist, since almost the entire world favors collectivism over individualism, almost no culture is 'western'. The default position is socialism, in the case of the North America colonies (post revolution) the model of ancient Greece was re-imagined to create a new type of country, so far it has been highly successful yet not very equal. this means if you work hard you ca…

> Western means not-communist,

No, it doesn't.

> since almost the entire world favors collectivism over individualism, almost no culture is 'western'.

You can favor collectivism and still not be communist, so that doesn't follow even if the preceding claim were true.

> The default position is socialism

No, it's not, and you seem to be conflating socialism, collectivism, and communism, which are not the same thing.

> in the case of the North America colonies (post revolution) the model of ancient Greece was re-imagined to create a new type of country

No, it wasn't. While classical references (Roman as much as Greek) were trendy at the time, the basic model of government was very closely modeled on contemporary European models with vary slight tweaks.)

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#75

Post by theBobBob » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:42 AM UTC

I remember when I moved away for college I was so shocked at how quite a few people basically couldn't look after themselves at all. I ended up teaching one guy I lived with how to do the most basic things. I actually had to show him how to put a duvet cover on, how to boil rice, how to use a washing machine, the fact that if a chicken fillet is 50% pink on the inside is not yet finished. He had never done any of these things himself before. I should have seen the warning signs when he moved in and his mother was unpacking and folding his underwear and putting them in his wardrobe for him. He was the worst that I seen but there were plenty more that weren't that far off.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#76

Post by keyle » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:44 AM UTC

joesb wrote: post #56

PebblesRox wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If anyone wants to see this in action, someone took a video of their two-year-old making coffee. It’s impressive! (And adorable) https://www.paulaspencerscott.com/single-post/toddler-making...

But, imagine, if the kids fucked up once and burns his face with that coffee, many of use would be blaming the parent for involving him in such a dangersous task for a two-year-old.

At no point does he carry the mug. I hold the mug, he barely touches it. He knows when something is dangerous if I've told him in the past.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#77

Post by coldtea » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:47 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

>I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern?

It's not about the geography. It's more about development (e.g. money) and culture -- and in essence an arbitrary historical capture of the term by Western Europeans and WASP-like Americans to mean themselves.

It's best to not thing such terms as about what their etymology or direct meaning is "western = west", etc, but instead consider how they are used in practice.

>I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly exposed to Christianity and its cultural heritage, read the same books and watch many of the same shows as Europe, the US, and Canada, I use sit-down toilet, not squat toilets, and I eat mostly with forks and knives, not with chopsticks or with my fingers.

Hundreds of millions of people in the areas you've mentioned have all the same characteristics as well.

>True that culture and wealth go hand-in-hand, but I think we're all more alike than different. I didn't like doing chores as a kid and I don't know a lot of Mexicans who did. We're more alike to those who self-apply and exclude us from the "Western" label than we are different.

Why try to be a member of a BS club that doesn't want you anyway? It's not as if being Western is any great achievement, that's just the way westerners use it when they laud themselves. With the rise of China, India, Brazil, and eventually Africa, the "West" is an increasingly insignificant part of the world. It just had a head start on plundering a new continent, and then the rest of the world -- which put it ahead of the rest of the planet for a while -- then again, Rome once was important too.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#78

Post by cerealbad » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 7:57 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #74

cerealbad wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are American (Latin). Western means not-communist, since almost the entire world favors collectivism over individualism, almost no culture is 'western'. The default position is socialism, in the case of the North America colonies (post revolution) the model of ancient Greece was re-imagined to create a new type of country, so far it has been highly successful yet not very equal. this means if you work hard you ca…

> Western means not-communist, No, it doesn't. > since almost the entire world favors collectivism over individualism, almost no culture is 'western'. You can favor collectivism and still not be communist, so that doesn't follow even if the preceding claim were true. > The default position is socialism No, it's not, and you seem to be conflating socialism, collectivism, and communism, which are not the same thing. >…

18th Century contemporary European models? European or English? The Spanish are in a 200 year decline, French revolution led to Napoleon, Germany is still the Kingdom of Prussia, Russia will continue to be an Empire until 1917. Could you specifically name the models and tweaks? The founding fathers borrowed from English common law and government, because they were English. Did they set up a Tsardom? A dauphin? An emperor?

I am conflating socialism, collectivism and communism because they fall under an umbrella I have dubbed eastern thought, not because they are the same thing. They are branches inheriting ideas from a root tree- which happens to span the entire world. Can you name another culture which elevated the individual above the collective?

I could've also said western means non-islamic, given that West vs East dates back all the way to fracturing of the Byzantine Empire and later the Crusades. But we don't live in a bipolar religious age, not since the fall of Christian influence and the rise of the Enlightenment, around the same time we are discussing. The real debate of the 21st century is which type of capitalism will succeed, co-operative or competitive at the international stage, this is why I mentioned China and the SCO. I felt it was important to highlight the economic thread given all the wasted energy on race, religion and gender politics.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#79

Post by poisonarena » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 8:00 AM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #27

I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern? Central? Southern? I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African, Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as Europe, have been mostly…

If you are reading, understanding, and participating in Hackernews you are western.

Re: How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores

#80

Post by sudhirj » Mon, Jun 11, 2018, 8:15 AM UTC

okket wrote: post #55

I find it a bit disturbing that there is always the general case 'children' in the headline and in the article, but no mention of boys, only girls doing the work and in the pictures.

There’s plenty of mentions of sons in the article, just no pictures.