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Taxation of Carried Interest

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Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#261
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mitt Romney had such a low income tax because the majority of his earnings was through municipal bonds. (which are not taxed) I rolled my eyes when the media said he was 'taking advantage of a loophole' and some people floated removing that 'loophole'. That would have been a blunder of blunders.

so the the question becomes 'why municiple bonds are not taxed?'

It is the simplest and only way to make them competitive for an investor. Anyone can buy them (that can invest in the U.S. anyways). If you tax them, nobody would buy them (risk versus earnings). To become a competitive and practical choice, and since it is an option for this investment, they make them tax free. Otherwise they would have to increase the interest to an unrealistic amount; at that point there would be no lending option practically. (Yes, investors only buy municipal bonds for the tax free trait to be honest. Not a loophole, just giving your money earlier to the government if you think about it from an opportunity cost perspective.)

Think of it as a way to take money from state and federal taxes and to move them to municipalities etc. It's either that or the government above would have to pick up the slack.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and I fundamentally disagree on what a tax is. You seem to view it as punishment or a burden. I view it as the method for paying for things that help the collective good. Not a punishment but rather a duty for those with the means. If we aren't using taxes to collectively protect society (e.g. military, police, courts), help the less fortunate, etc then why collect them at all? The richer the entity (indi…

> think you and I fundamentally disagree on what a tax is. You seem to view it as punishment or a burden. I view it as the method for paying for things that help the collective good. Not a punishment but rather a duty for those with the means. If we aren't using taxes to collectively protect society (e.g. military, police, courts), help the less fortunate, etc then why collect them at all? The richer the entity (indi…

> taxation is a cost on the person paying for it, and will have the same effects to him as if the person lost the taxed money into the abyss.

In my town, in addition to the normal local taxes, there is a special greenery fee/tax that all residents must pay. It is only $25/year. The purpose is to pay the upkeep of all the green spaces which there are many. I happily pay this because I like to walk through these green spaces. Individually there is no way that $25/year would pay for that, but collectively the town can afford to and it improves living here for all the residents.

There are of course many examples where tax money is not used wisely, but there are also many examples where it is. We should get better at spending it wisely which is of course easier said than done. But to say that taxes are like throwing money into the abyss just doesn't stack up to the data.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#263
post #54

The correct solution to this problem is to abolish the distinction between capital gains and ordinary income (ie wages), and abolish the corporate income tax that justifies the "double taxation" argument that justifies the capital gains rate. Capital gains is why Mitt Romney can make 200 times as much as I do in a year, and pay half my effective tax rate. This is broad across the economy. It's a fundamentally immoral…

If you abolish corporate taxation, (rich) people will just use them to avoid taxes. Won't have to pay any tax on investment growth if you wrap all your investments in a corporation. Hiring me? No you're hiring my corporation, which pays me a meager salary. Company car? Check. Company apartment? Check. There is another consideration, you want to motivate people with lots of money to invest it somewhere. Money sitting…

Just augmenting other replies a tiny bit: > Money sitting on a bank ledger can't do nearly as much as money in a venture capital fund. You have to be careful with taxes to make sure you don't dis-incentivize investment too much.

Money never sits around, especially in banks. (And when "it does" it's because they are playing games with the government.) For every dollar in your account, you can bet they are lending "3 dollars", (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking).

It is important to realize that a bank's liabilities are your deposits. You deposit $2000, they write down liabilities $2000. Their assets are their loans, credit card revenue, derivatives owned etc. That's why you are owed an interest. Their job is to use your money to make money. Insurance companies (health, car, ...) and retirement funds work the same. Their advantage over you is that they manage a big sum of money, which gives them access to better-term investing deals, full-time (and knowledgeable supposedly...) personnel for investing etc.

Thus, despite what any of the above institutions, might want you to think, they really want your money; the problem is you don't see any part of the capital gains produced practically.

"The only way that money sits, is if it is under your bed or you burned it."

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your post belies one of the most harmful stereotypes that many rich and right-leaning people hold, that the poor would simply "rather have just one coconut today", and it's due only to their own short-sightedness and lack of impulse control that that they are poor. For many people, it's not a fucking choice. It's eat your last coconut or starve until your next paycheck. The recent story on HN about performance on the…

You wouldn't be ahead because there is risk in investing. The biggest capital gain tax the less sense it makes to invest. That's why the capital gain tax rate is different than income tax. Making capital gain tax progressive is a recipe for not getting any more investment from private citizens.

Who says we need more investment from private citizens? Perhaps we need less.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you and I fundamentally disagree on what a tax is. You seem to view it as punishment or a burden. I view it as the method for paying for things that help the collective good. Not a punishment but rather a duty for those with the means. If we aren't using taxes to collectively protect society (e.g. military, police, courts), help the less fortunate, etc then why collect them at all? The richer the entity (indi…

> think you and I fundamentally disagree on what a tax is. You seem to view it as punishment or a burden. I view it as the method for paying for things that help the collective good. Not a punishment but rather a duty for those with the means. If we aren't using taxes to collectively protect society (e.g. military, police, courts), help the less fortunate, etc then why collect them at all? The richer the entity (indi…

> A tax IS a punishment

A tax is a legitimate cost of a functioning economy as much as an electricity bill or a truckload of cement. That tax pays for the infrastructure which makes that same transaction possible in the first place.

Ideally the cost of participation in the economy should scale linearly with how much excess benefit you derive. Total benefit minus the cost of being a functioning human in the society. This requires the insight that a person who has $1,000 of discretionary money every week has a lot more than ten times the excess benefit as someone who has just $100 discretionary every week.

Put another way, from the perspective of a rich person, it's in my interest to have everyone else in society well fed, free of disease, mentally healthy and able to work productively. The best way for rich people to ensure that is to require them all to pay a much larger proportion of taxes.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#266
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense? #1 You’ve just discouraged capital investment. #2 you’ve just agreed with my initial statement that there is a reason carried interest is taxed the way it is. If you tax capital more than labor, then by definition, carried interest is fine, because the people who pay it ARE THE PEOPLE DOING THE LABOR!! Seriously, I realize that this is an emotional topic for many people, but you have to think through the se…

Carried interest is a misapplication of the idea of labor. Of course it's fine that they're taxed less than people who put up only money - but I disagree with the entire idea of capital taxation being less. Capital investment is discouraged, but it's not as if it's going to stop due to this discouragement. What are people going to do with their money, NOT invest it? Found their own companies instead? Acquire capital…

Cap gains are absolutely NOT passive.

I build a company. Work my fingers to the bone for years, and take a significantly reduced salary compared to my market value. Later I sell it for a billion dollars.

That is taxed as long term capital gains. Are you saying that’s passive? Sure, you buying a few shares of Ford is passive, but tons of capital gains like in my example are not.

Also, you comment “that came out fine” is rather flippant. When you dominate the world after a world war, pretty much everything is going to go your way, whether you tax income at insane rates or make black people drink from separate fountains. Both occurred in the same time period. If you use you’re argument that “things worked out fine”, why not also keep that around? I think the reason is we’ve managed to see that correlation doesn’t drive our decisions there. And they shouldn’t in taxation either.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#267
post #22
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carried interest is effectively the General Partners share of the dividend. Dividends are taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income, so this is as well. This is true whether you’re poor and own one share of a dividend paying stock, or you’re Ray Dalio. Here a pretty good breakdown of how it works and why it makes sense [0]. To be clear, I’m not saying you have to like it, but the rich have been getting richer since…

If the point of lower capital gains tax rate is to incentivize risking capital then the carried interest loophole makes no sense because the noney manager isn't risking his capital. His "share of the dividend" is just another fee that should be taxed as any other income.

If you want to discuss “fair”, I’d tend to agree with you. But taxing them while not screwing out all the other business structures that look just like this (see harryh’s example above) is damn near impossible. Which is why the exemption is in there. Figure that out and it might change. Until then, you risk screwing up all sorts of businesses that are not financial let alone hedge funds.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#268
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All that can be taxed as well. At the risk of increased compliance cost?

Just count every benefit one can feasibly calculate a dollar amount for the company provides the employee to the income for purposes of calculating income tax due. In German law there is a phrase for that, geldwerter Vorteil , formally Sachbezug . The wording is: > EStG §8 Abs. 2 Einnahmen, die nicht in Geld bestehen (Wohnung, Kost, Waren, Dienstleistungen und sonstige Sachbezüge), sind mit den um übliche Preisnachlä…

It's easy to fudge and difficult to investigate whether employee use of company assets/funds is actually compensation or actually for business purposes.

I'm a software engineer. My company assigns me a Macbook Pro and iPhone with data plan to do my work, use 2-factor auth, and answer PagerDuty. It doesn't make any effort to stop me from using these devices as my personal daily drivers. Anecdotally, my coworkers do. If you're the kind of person to buy a new Mac and iPhone every 2 years, having the company do it for you saves $1500+/yr. Is that compensation? Maybe it depends on how the devices are used. Well, now you've got the tax authorities poring over MDM logs trying to tell how many minutes of screen-on time were business vs. personal. Yikes.

I've been a field technician. We had a pool of company cars at the office for visiting client sites. For some jobs, it did not make geographical sense to drive my personal car to the office and switch, so a company car became my daily commuter for a while. Was this compensation? If the company car was ever the most readily accessible in the driveway, I may even have used it for a purely personal errand in the evening. Would it have been compensation then? Maybe it depends on what proportion of use this accounted for. Now you've got the tax authorities poring over GPS logs trying to determine which POIs I drove to and from were work-related, and we're arguing about whether it was my house or the office that needed toilet paper when I made a particular CVS run. Assuming there even are GPS logs.

I've been asked to take meetings and work with adjacent teams at our satellite offices. I obviously take advantage of my time in a new city to see the sights. For what proportion of the trip do I need to be in the office for it to count as work vs. work underhandedly paying for a personal vacation, and how are you going to check? Entry leaves a paper trail, exit doesn't. What if I just badge into our satellite office each day for the free coffee and then go about my vacation? Often the whitelisted hotels in our travel booking system are nicer and more expensive than anything I'd book personally. They're in keeping with the general high quality of our offices and equipment, but nicer than they need to be to fulfill the business purposes of the trip. Is this a form of compensation? Directors and above get to fly first class. Cattle class gets your ass to the meeting just the same. Is that a form of compensation? Now you're in the business of benchmarking what is a reasonable price to for travel/lodging in a given city at a given time under specific parameters (advance notice, number of travelers, etc). And what if your manager says he authorized first class so that your productivity wouldn't take as much of a hit? Does Gogo even keep good enough logs to tell whether I was really using the company VPN during the flight?

This is not to say you should throw up your hands. The IRS certainly doesn't. It gets into the weeds on all of this, at least as to whether the business can deduct the expense (not so much whether to count extra income for the employee). But this stuff is incredibly nuanced and complex, and there's more than enough room in that complexity to hide a scenario where the employer pays much of the employee's living expenses tax-free in lieu of salary.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#269
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok. Interesting point you have. But let’s dive into something that shows how statstics can get really skewed: Take money 100 years ago. The richest guy on the planet (ignoring royalty, as those figures aren’t reliable) was John D Rockefeller. He was worth a ton of money, possibly even a billion dollars. Today’s richest man in Jeff Bezos, worth about 100 times that (depending on the stock price, somewhere roughly betw…

Economists aren't stupid, and they've thought of these things like zero lower bound. This is a well-studied issue. When people say the concentration of wealth is increasing, they aren't saying it's increasing relative to Rockefeller's time (how far back should we go? 1492? The start of the neolithic?), but it's increasing now, such as over the last few decades.

I get your point, but have a couple issues. First, there are plenty of stupid economists. Just like there are plenty of stupid people in finance or politics, or many other things.

But I’m not going to debate that particular thing, and I’m fine if we disagree. *

That being said, the timespan question is very valid, but pinnning down the cause is really hard.

If you read the research, the highest correlation is with globalization, not taxes. Let’s pretend you fully buy into that statement. If so, would you argue against globalization? And I mean that as a serious question. This is a really hard problem, and the answers are more like foggy hints than anything else. But if we’re really honest with ourselves, and the answer was yes, what should we do about it? Taxation is hard because it immediately districts the natural market and causes many second order effects. Pulling those apart to understand the root cause is really hard and few people can do it at all, let alone well.

*My main issue is that economists tend to have a poor understand of statistics and cause and effect relative to what they need to really do their job. If you listen to Ed Yardeni, he basically throws out all macro-economics as being a sad state of affairs given how bad their models are compared to the reality they’re supposed to predict. Still worse, novel prize winners continue to spout their theories after they have been proven empirically wrong. Hence my general issue with the field. Some are clearly smart, but enough aren’t that gives me great pause.

Re: Taxation of Carried Interest

#270
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that how income tax works too? Why should cap gains be different?

Say you buy a house for $1m. You then want to move to an identical house in another location and houses now cost $2m. By moving, on a basic capital gains tax calculation you have a profit of $500k and a tax bill of say $200k. But you don't have $200k and can't move. This not a good situation hence various fixes. That particular problem does not come up with income although there are other problems there. Tax is messy…

> But you don't have $200k and can't move. This not a good situation hence various fixes.

So dont move or move when you can afford to pay the tax.

Why did the value of the neighbourhood increase, its because society aka the police keeping the area safe, the people who maintain all the infrastructure/roads etc, who is going to pay for all that?

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