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Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

arstechnica.com

211–220 of 244 posts

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the break pedal overrides everything, then you'd have a run of the mill radar breaking system, regular lane following system, and only after that (and maybe even further back) the more advanced self driving-ish stuff The problem the article points out is that there's no safe, dumb response to radar seeing something stopped right in front of a car going 70 mpg. If anything, the systems the article describes are a l…

Why does "in case of anomaly or ambiguity, slow the fuck down, gather more data and reassess" never seem to be part of the functional logic with these things?

I think it's because at this point they would not be able to move forward at all...

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#212
post #205

And it also creates a danger that the car behind won't stop in time, leading to a rear-end collision. Inattentive tailgaters shouldn't be accommodated. Sure, their problem becomes your problem when you brake hard, but I'd much rather be rear-ended (with head rests and the whole rear of the car as a crumple zone) than plow head on into a stationary object at high speed.

If the car in front of me doesn’t stop until it’s too late (or at all) it doesn’t matter how attentive I am, I probably can’t stop in time either. Most of the time I can’t see past the car in front of me. It’s too tall, no windows (commercial truck), etc. so the ONLY way I know I’m in danger is how they’re acting.

I kinda disagree with this. If you cannot stop in case the car in front slams the breaks as hard as they can you probably don’t have and appropriate following distance or you are not paying attention to the road.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless companies like Tesla stop worrying about being the next "Great American Industry" and start focusing on real world problems and their solutions. If Tesla could develop a network of self driving buses, that would have far greater reach and impact than trying to solve how to make a private network for charging and all case-considered self-driving system for asshole-mobiles. Not that Tesla cars aren't amazing, bu…

Bikes/e-bikes work great for any type of commute... Only when they aren't. Winter means snow, ice, and below zero temperatures and my hands simply can't handle the extra cold from the wind. I'm not handicapped and do walk during the winter, but tend to take the bus on the very rainy and very cold days despite dressing for the weather. let alone the fact that I'm no where near skilled enough with a bicycle to feel saf…

So first off, I love buses as a means of transportation and in any situation where biking would be unsafe, I would err on the side of caution and use a bus like you suggest so you know, no judgement here, I think that's cool.

And yeah, not having bike paths makes it a whole different story. Drivers can be very irresponsible regarding the safety of cyclists (especially during inclement weather). I would personally be very weary if I had to bike exclusively on the street. Where I live, I can get pretty much everywhere without touching a single street thanks to all the dedicated multi-use / bike paths. In fact, the reason I purchased a e-bike and decided to try to go car free was the installation of a bike path that parallels the major highway here. But all of the bike paths here are a response to how many people here are cyclists and the dedication of the community to take steps to fight climate change/pollution. Though places like Indiana may never have a good bike system without some sort of federal intervention if they are really that anti-biking, but there are much better places to live if you like to bike. Riding around the Denver/Boulder metro area is an absolute hoot and there are places that are even more bike friendly.

Living in Colorado I bike to commute in both freezing conditions and 100+ degree weather conditions without catching a sweat on my e-bike. I'm not some hyper fit guy, I've got a dad-bod and long hair (along with a beard at the moment) and I generally run warm. But after I settled on trying to use the e-bike I got as my primary means of transportation, I started solving some of the problems you discuss.

For instance during the winter, I wear a black down jacket (with a massive backpack that keeps my back extra toasty), a insulated black balaclava with ski goggles, ski gloves if it's extra cold (otherwise just some simple neoprene gloves), long johns and thick wool socks and to combat the wind I ride with my hands in my jacket pockets (though that's admittedly only possible because of the long open curves of the bike path and I never have to make any surprise emergency stops). You might think that I'd be sweating like crazy in all of that, but you have to remember, with an e-bike, my effort for pedaling is similar to that of riding a beach cruiser down a flat boardwalk with a tailwind regardless of wind, hills or cargo and my layering is generally designed to keep me comfortable. At most I will unzip my coat to ventilate my torso. And when I get to my destination, I usually just stop off at some restroom to slip off my long johns - sometimes I'll also switch my shirt.

Also on the note of snow, while I wouldn't recommend it as it's super sketchy and totally unsafe, I've found that getting around in even a few inches of snow on the ground is weirdly doable with an e-bike if you have it in throttle-only mode. The reason being that you can keep your body still and work on maintaining your balance while letting the motor do all the work. It works so well because you don't have to worry about unpredictable tire slippage causing you to throw your weight. An e-bike tire can slip all it wants and I'm still just going to be standing over my bike in a track stand while maneuvering the front tire. Plus with mountain bike tire, you get better traction on snow or mud so it works even better than my track bike.

During the summer, I wear white UPF rated compression tights under highly breathable hybrid shorts and a UPF t-shirt. I wear white nylon gloves, and a thin moisture wicking white balaclava with sunglasses. Do I look like a kook? Sure. I get a lot of weird looks. But I don't mind, the white outfit not only protects me from sun burns, it increases the evaporative cooling of my sweat as well as reflecting most of the light so my skin isn't really being heated by direct radiation. The result is I can get around quite comfortably regardless of the heat outside. And during the summer, it's even easier to carry an extra shirt or pair of short to switch to into a non-ninja-esque outfit. Plus, despite the weirdo factor, it's at least a little fun to go into a bathroom and come out wearing tights like Superman.

Regarding range, that's one of the cool thing about e-bikes, the one I bought for $1300 and most bikes I've seen over $1200 have a battery that can be unlocked and easily removed so I just bring the charger with me (not much larger than a power brick for a gaming laptop), stick the battery in my bag and then just plug it in where ever I'm stopping. The battery fully charges in 4 hours so assuming I don't need to go more than ~25 miles in a 5 hour window, the e-bike works perfect. (Though I will say that there definitely is a big power output drop off when the battery gets under 30% but I rarely get mine under 40%)

The big thing bikes have over buses is convenience and price. Much like a car, you can anywhere you want and because of the speeds (up to 28 mph for class 3 or 20 mph for class 2 motors) my commutes are generally faster than by bus, and I'd say on average, only 40-50% slower than taking a car which might sound high, but that's usually only an extra 10-15 minutes plus I get the fun of riding a bike around. Not to mention in areas where finding parking is difficult, riding a bike can actually end up being faster than driving.

Buses are definitely part of the equation, which was the point of my original comment, but that shouldn't negate bikes as a preferable means of transportation. Especially if you have a situation in which you can get away with commuting by traditional bike rather than an e-bike. They're the most energy efficient standard mode of transportation available to my knowledge.

https://truecostblog.com/2010/05/27/fuel-efficiency-modes-of...

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest, actual mass deployed self driving tech is probably 20 years away at minimum. I personally might be able to enjoy it just before I retire.

Unless companies like Tesla stop worrying about being the next "Great American Industry" and start focusing on real world problems and their solutions. If Tesla could develop a network of self driving buses, that would have far greater reach and impact than trying to solve how to make a private network for charging and all case-considered self-driving system for asshole-mobiles. Not that Tesla cars aren't amazing, bu…

>With the exception of the handicapped, people don't really need cars.

What country do you live in? We don't all live in downtown SF. In fact, most of us don't. We live outside the city and drive 20 miles to get to work (you're nuts if you think most people are going to spend hours commuting 60 miles on a bicycle every day). And there are no bike Lanes, let alone paths And it snows.

>There's really no valid reason to use a car unless you're an invalid.

You're on another planet. It's interesting that you talk about finding practical soltutions to "real problems" yet seem to lack any notion of what the real problems are.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#215
post #6

If Tesla actually made Autopilot into an emergency braking (or, more generally, safety) system, it would be fine. All they’d have to do is make two changes: switch from automatic steering to a lane departure warning system (so the driver must keep their hands on the wheel and will always be paying attention) and possibly rename it. Of course, their stock price might crash and a whole bunch of customers who paid for s…

Ever been in a Tesla? The current system requires you to keep your hands on the wheel, and they always have. In fact there are YouTube videos of idiots showing how they use clamps and other defeat devices to take their hands off the wheel, which the car is inherently designed NOT to let you do.

Yes, I’ve driven them. Given personal experience and Elon’s claims of drivers using autopilot with hands off the wheels, I believe you’re incorrect.

To be clear, when I say the software should be changed to not automatically steer, I don’t mean that it should more aggressively complain about hands off the wheel. I mean that the car should drive in a straight line with hands off the wheel, and it should also alert the driver if it thinks that the driver is leaving the lane.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's strange. As one of most popular "crash management" systems on the market, one installed on Volvos is quite good at this, to the extend they put it's test video into their commercials. A sponsored article?

https://support.volvocars.com/hk/cars/Pages/owners-manual.as... "WARNING "When the adaptive cruise control is following another vehicle at speeds in excess ofca 30 km/h (20 mph) and the target is changed from a moving vehicle to a stationary vehicle, the adaptive cruise control will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead select the stored speed. "The driver must then intervene him/herself and brake."

As an open wheel formula car racer, I have to say that my best guess is most people who would purchase a "self-driving" car do not like to drive (if I could disable the anti-lock on my cars I would, and I ALWAYS drive with the skid control turned off. Although I have track tested some of the VW models circa 2010 on short autocross tracks with the stability program on and did not find it a hindrance to driving the cars sideways through the corners. I did not time test it to see which way was quicker, but again I felt in control and not that the car was fighting me; having said that I still drove my GTI with the stability program switched off even in the snow and especially in the rain) and I believe this is a major factor in these crashes.

One of the most difficult things to do in a race, is to go fast/drive at your best the moment the flag goes green; and here it appears to me that we have people who don't like to drive, so therefore they likely aren't very good at it, and suddenly they are faced with a life and death crisis in which they NOW have to save their life by starting to drive the car when they are not even warmed up and they have very little room for error... I mean do the math.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#217
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not even bothering to flip through a meager 1" thick manual for a newly acquired automobile strikes me as negligent. Perhaps, but then almost everyone is negligent. The car designers (and the whole world) know that well, so to depend on people reading the manual is disingenuous and dangerous.

The idea that someone is going to spend an hour studying a user manual when they pickup a rental car at the airport is just silly. I actually find it something of an issue with rental cars these days. Obviously the foot pedals, turn signals, etc. are well enough standardized that it takes very little to accustomize yourself with them. But environmental/entertainment controls? And then there's the fact that things lik…

I recently completed a safety-oriented traffic school course online and there was an entire section dedicated to renting and borrowing cars.

It surprised me to see it covered, let alone how thorough their guidelines were. Some things I recall from their pre-flight checklist:

- check general tire condition and pressures in a walk-around

- locate the spare tire and jack

- familiarize yourself with the location of pedals, and controls for turn signals, hazard lights, and the emergency brake

- adjust seat and mirrors

I didn't see the priority of locating the spare tire and jack before driving, but the others all seem like a good responsible bare minimum.

People don't seem to generally appreciate the gravity of operating heavy machinery capable of high speeds on shared public roads.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're measuring the raw efficiency of the self-driving mechanism, you have to correct for those. If you're measuring whether the actual experience of using autopilot meets the prevailing standards by which we judge "safe enough" as a country, you don't want to correct for those first three. Especially the "the cars are new and safe overall" factor. Correcting for that is like "correcting for" the fact that all th…

I replied to Retric ’s claim about Autopilot ”I think these are already fairly close to human fatality rates” If (and that’s likely) other features than Autopilot contribute to Teslas killing and injuring fewer people, we must compensate for them to judge whether Autopilot is a net benefit.

Net benifit is even more tricky than that as you need to include things like the heath benifits of a more relaxed commute.

All my line of argument is trying to adress is how long until self driving cars are 'ready' which directly relates to how capable they are today. The data I looked at suggested somewhere above 'drunk driver' but below 'school buss driver'. That seems like an extreme range, but they are each human levels of competence. Which is different than they are being portrayed and IMO a sign they are very close to ready.

While the points you bring up are meaningful, we let people drive without those safty features. So, in terms of policy it seems like an ever higher bar, as for example automated breaking systems and lane following raise the bar above human competence, but again are not being installed on older cars.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#219
post #98
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lived and drove in the Phoenix metro area for many years, and there are very, very few areas that are as dense as most other cities. On top of that, the infrastructure is relatively new, the roads and lanes are nice and wide, and weather isn't a major concern almost all the time. GP's assertion that driving in Phoenix is easier than most other places is absolutely correct.

His assertion was that it's 100x harder to drive in Detroit during winter than in Phoenix. Is that absolutely correct? I don't dispute that Phoenix is easier to drive than San Francisco or Detroit during winter. It's perfectly rational to debut such service in the easiest possible environment. I just don't think that it's a fundamentally different problem to make this work elsewhere. This technology already improved…

>I just don't think that it's a fundamentally different problem to make this work elsewhere...

>...I don't have an inside knowledge on this...

So, based on your complete lack of knowledge on the subject, you think that the current solutions will easily extend to more difficult applications? I work in a related field (image/signal processing and ML) and I can assure you that there is no such thing as a general solution here. It is absolutely reasonable to expect that your 70% solution may simpler never work for the remaining 30% and you have to go back to the drawing board.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're measuring the raw efficiency of the self-driving mechanism, you have to correct for those. If you're measuring whether the actual experience of using autopilot meets the prevailing standards by which we judge "safe enough" as a country, you don't want to correct for those first three. Especially the "the cars are new and safe overall" factor. Correcting for that is like "correcting for" the fact that all th…

I replied to Retric ’s claim about Autopilot ”I think these are already fairly close to human fatality rates” If (and that’s likely) other features than Autopilot contribute to Teslas killing and injuring fewer people, we must compensate for them to judge whether Autopilot is a net benefit.

Now apply my analogy. All that armor around the battery cells contributes to Teslas setting fewer people on fire. We must compensate for it to see if lithium ion is a net benefit.

Which... doesn't really make sense. The safety features are part of the package. You can't get the dangerous part without them.

No cars are sold with a big blob of naked unprotected lithium ion cells. And no cars are sold with autopilot but not high-end crash protection.

A feature being dangerous in isolation is not enough to show that it lacks net benefit.

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