Live data from Hacker News

Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

arstechnica.com

181–190 of 244 posts

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#181

A common situation, certainly on British motorways in relatively heavy traffic, is to be tooling along at 70mph, and then have to come to a halt - or drop to 20mph - fairly abruptly due to waves of slow moving traffic that move backwards along the carriageway. I wonder how well such systems would handle that kind of situation, where obstacles might not be stationary, but the speed difference is large?

In my experience - a car with both adaptive cruise and auto emergency braking: it handles the situation quite well, but the human driver (i.e. me) uses hints that the autonomous systems cannot, such as brake lights coming on ahead. The auto systems take a second or two longer to react.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#182
post #6

If Tesla actually made Autopilot into an emergency braking (or, more generally, safety) system, it would be fine. All they’d have to do is make two changes: switch from automatic steering to a lane departure warning system (so the driver must keep their hands on the wheel and will always be paying attention) and possibly rename it. Of course, their stock price might crash and a whole bunch of customers who paid for s…

Based on previous discussions Teslas cannot do what you are asking for without LIDAR, Musk would have to admit he made a mistake on not using LIDAR and invalidate the sensor suite on all Teslas on the road.

Tesla sold a $3000 "full self-driving hardware" upgrade for a while, and now advertises all cars with the same, while suggesting that the software update to enable it is just around the corner.

If they admit that radar + optical cameras won't be good enough for full self driving, there may be a lot of refunds to process.

From first principles, just optical cameras should be enough - humans can do it. But the software to make it work could be general AI level complex. Personally I think LIDAR self-driving will be available in less than 5 years, but optical may take 30 years. And the company who would be most capable of developing optical self-driving AI is Google, the fact that they are sticking to LIDAR is a good indication of the complexity of optical.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#183
post #6

If Tesla actually made Autopilot into an emergency braking (or, more generally, safety) system, it would be fine. All they’d have to do is make two changes: switch from automatic steering to a lane departure warning system (so the driver must keep their hands on the wheel and will always be paying attention) and possibly rename it. Of course, their stock price might crash and a whole bunch of customers who paid for s…

Ever been in a Tesla? The current system requires you to keep your hands on the wheel, and they always have. In fact there are YouTube videos of idiots showing how they use clamps and other defeat devices to take their hands off the wheel, which the car is inherently designed NOT to let you do.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#184
post #67
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies which have hard data will lower your rates if your car has autopilot. I am sure they base that on hard data I don't have. If you have better data than I would love to see it. But, IMO using ballpark numbers is much better than simply having a bad feeling about something. These cars are not going to fail the same way people do. Computers really fuck up in broad daylight, people get drunk and drive…

> Insurance companies which have hard data will lower your rates if your car has autopilot. That's probably because Tesla is liable. And it could be that at this point they don't mind operating at a loss in this area.

Really? Last I saw, Tesla was blaming the driver. Their ostensible position (as well as other companies selling assistive systems) is that the driver has to remain alert and in control. They're a bit hypocritical about this but they certainly don't seem to be accepting liability.

It will be an interesting question once systems are on the road that claim to be fully autonomous--and no one's sure how this will work yet. If I'm sitting in a car that's sold (and regulated) as completely hands off I'm certainly not going to accept liability if it does something dumb and kills someone.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why don't they'd partner with Waymo? They can build the cars and collect the data, while Waymo can provide the ML expertise. I'm sure Tesla+Waymo would be a hit among a certain type of crowd.

Waymo seems to be doing just fine on their own. I'm not sure they feel they need any partnership. They just ordered some 30,000-ish cars, so it would seem they're entering the mass-production phase.

There's active disdain (or at least snide jokes) among the senior Waymo engineers for the approach to autonomous driving taken by Tesla. I can't see a partnership in the cards, probably ever.

Source: used to work there

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest, actual mass deployed self driving tech is probably 20 years away at minimum. I personally might be able to enjoy it just before I retire.

Unless companies like Tesla stop worrying about being the next "Great American Industry" and start focusing on real world problems and their solutions. If Tesla could develop a network of self driving buses, that would have far greater reach and impact than trying to solve how to make a private network for charging and all case-considered self-driving system for asshole-mobiles. Not that Tesla cars aren't amazing, bu…

Bikes/e-bikes work great for any type of commute...

Only when they aren't. Winter means snow, ice, and below zero temperatures and my hands simply can't handle the extra cold from the wind. I'm not handicapped and do walk during the winter, but tend to take the bus on the very rainy and very cold days despite dressing for the weather. let alone the fact that I'm no where near skilled enough with a bicycle to feel safe riding on 2inches of ice - regardless of studded tires. Summers have really strong sun, making folks deceptively warm and sweaty. I dont' know about your job, but most of mine want me to be clean and not smell of sweat when I arrive. I always have the chance of cargo: I walk to the grocery store most times. (I am not legal to drive in my present country).

When I lived in Indiana, there were not only problems with actual weather, but then I ran into route problems. The easiest route for commutes was major roads, but unfortunately most of those roads aren't built for people to ride bikes or walk. In some places, doing either activity on those roads meant you got stopped by the cops and told to find another path to take. You were putting cars and yourself at risk using that road. Luckily, there are more paths for such things here.

Not only that, but e-bikes have a limited range in most circumstances. Higher-end ones go far enough, but some of the cheaper models risk losing power at the higher ends. By the time most e-bikes has power to spare on those commutes, here they might be legally a scooter.

I do agree with having a robust public transportation system, however. That actually soves the issues with the bikes, but bikes alone seem won't work.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure all the seniors love riding public transit.

In parts of the UK, seniors get free travel on buses. That’s very popular. Even where it’s not free, buses can be great for older people who aren’t able or confident to drive (due to mobility, eyesight, etc). If your buses aren’t popular with old people, you have bad buses.

In Germany, even among elderly that could drive buses are very popular (even though they have to pay). Driving a bus is a lot more social than sitting alone in your car. They meet old friends or they make new ones.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be honest, actual mass deployed self driving tech is probably 20 years away at minimum. I personally might be able to enjoy it just before I retire.

Reading this comment (and the many like it) I get the feeling that something essential must be getting left out when we're speaking of the "far-off mass-deployed self-driving tech". Mostly because it directly contradicts my day-to-day experience. I've personally seen a few "self-driving cars" on the streets of SF and I suspect many of you reading this have as well (particularly if you live in the Mission or South Par…

Yes.

That can be how a distant technology looks, if the stakes for failure are that people die.

You can get early adopters from one tail of the bell curve, hype, working prototypes, and people dying because prototypes fail. There may be a churn of companies... "We know that AlphaDrive and BetaDrive both killed people but we here at GammaDrive want to reassure you that we're totally committed to your safety!" "But that's what BetaDrive said." "Yeah but we REALLY MEAN it this time." "Wait, what to you mean, 'we'?" "Um, nothing..." "You hired BetaDrive's employees when they went out of business, didn't you?" "Uh... Oh would you look at the time!"

With that said I don't know Cruise and maybe they're doing better than Tesla.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#189
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only irresponsible car company has been Tesla (and Uber). All the other companies positioned their adaptive systems correctly and very conservatively. Tesla came out and downright asserted their system was autonomous[1]. Predictably, they have since had to scale that back significantly. [1] https://www.tesla.com/en_CA/videos/autopilot-self-driving-ha...

Tesla literally never says that autopilot system is self driving and has repeated nags and reminders to keep hands on the wheel and pay attention. This message is repeated during onboarding, training videos, and manual etc. 99% of Tesla owners follow these instructions. There will of course be 1% drivers who will not.

>Tesla literally never says that autopilot system is self driving and has repeated nags and reminders to keep hands on the wheel and pay attention.

When Tesla was debuting Autopilot I got the sense that the system was more than your typical adaptive cruise control + lane assist that was solely designed for long straight roads. That was implied in the marketing, and messaging from Musk. Did the system even provide something as rudimentary as an audible warning if a driver climbed into their back seat like some dumbasses on YouTube?

>This message is repeated during onboarding, training videos, and manual etc. 99% of Tesla owners follow these instructions.

I bet it is now.

Re: Why emergency braking systems sometimes hit parked cars and lane dividers

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, I'm also pessimistic about self driving cars, but I think it's reasonable to assume that Tesla engineers are aware that machine learning is hard.

That's strange. As one of most popular "crash management" systems on the market, one installed on Volvos is quite good at this, to the extend they put it's test video into their commercials. A sponsored article?

https://support.volvocars.com/hk/cars/Pages/owners-manual.as...

"WARNING

"When the adaptive cruise control is following another vehicle at speeds in excess ofca 30 km/h (20 mph) and the target is changed from a moving vehicle to a stationary vehicle, the adaptive cruise control will ignore the stationary vehicle and instead select the stored speed.

"The driver must then intervene him/herself and brake."

Post reply on HN