GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged • Hacker News Board

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#21

Post by amasad » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:00 AM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

So I mentioned, multiple times, that you shouldn't exclude people that don't have a Github profile. All I'm saying is that if you're underprivileged you have this awesome tool, use it.

And no I didn't have a lot of free time. I was working and going to school but when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#22

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:02 AM UTC

LaRakel wrote: post #18

sanxiyn wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Quality is not necessarily correlated with popularity. Eh, it definitely is correlated. Maybe you wanted to say correlation is not perfect?

It's more that there a lot more factors than quality, like there being no competing projects or it being useful to a lot of people. Writing a quality project only gives it better odds than if the same thing was written shoddily.

"better odds" is exactly what correlation means. It does not mean "always better".

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#23

Post by watwut » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

Imo, OSS advocates really really want open source contributions to be used as hiring signal, because that would mean more open source developers. That is what this all is about, primary. Wish to come back to "open source developers are superior, because reasons" ideology that was pushed for during open/close source wars. And close source developers take issue with it not just because of privilege, but also because you are claiming they are less capable due to their code not being OSS.

Majority of employed developers don't have regular open source contributions. Especially those who work in high pressure jobs that already take all they have - both in time and how much effort you can spend per day. If the company is trying at least little bit to reward contributions, the people who give the company more (or come in better rested) get rewarded more then those who work for company less. That drives employees incentives and behavior.

Yes, there are junior jobs available to people with two months of coding experience. That is how it should be and there is nothing wrong with company seeing your OSS code as one of way to prove you can do it. The moment it will be expected from everyone, guess what, people like me will have tons of advantages to homeless, former "big scholarship to go to university" student who had to drop out due to personal reasons.

Senior developer market is not flooded with people with large open source contributions through. It is just not the case. Why would open source on Github should be privileged over random portfolio in case of juniors? Or to open source contributions that are not on Github?

Lastly, I dont think large open source projects can handle influx of juniors using them to prove themselves - which is what would happen if companies would really require oss contributions for hiring. Oss projects have often hard time to stay on top of existing pull requests.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#24

Post by onion2k » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:03 AM UTC

sintaxi wrote: post #16

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

Privilege is what is UNEARNED and there is no way to qualify if those with open source contributions are more privileged than others. The very opposite could be true. The privileged can bounce from well paying job to the next with no OSS contributions while the underprivileged have to "show their value" in the harsh environment of open source. You're constructing the viewpoint you want others to see with no data or f…

I'm saying that being in a position to have spare time to work on open source is a sign of privilege, and that employers should recognize that when they're hiring. Some great developers work on open source projects, but equally some great developers don't. Open source contributions are not a useful filter.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#25

Post by mverwijs » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

amasad wrote: post #21

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

So I mentioned, multiple times, that you shouldn't exclude people that don't have a Github profile. All I'm saying is that if you're underprivileged you have this awesome tool, use it. And no I didn't have a lot of free time. I was working and going to school but when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep.

It is the open Internet that levelled the playing field.

Of which Github and Open Source are but subsets.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#26

Post by sanxiyn » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

I think the obviously right choice is: Do not require open source contributions, but do not ignore them. Similarly: Do not require degrees, computer science or otherwise, but do not ignore them.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#27

Post by watwut » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:08 AM UTC

sintaxi wrote: post #16

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

Privilege is what is UNEARNED and there is no way to qualify if those with open source contributions are more privileged than others. The very opposite could be true. The privileged can bounce from well paying job to the next with no OSS contributions while the underprivileged have to "show their value" in the harsh environment of open source. You're constructing the viewpoint you want others to see with no data or f…

The world of open source is alternatively great place full of great people where any bad experience is suspect and alternatively harsh environment. Depending of what political point people want to make.

Or maybe there are both friendly and unfriendly projects and a lot depends on where the underprivileged is trying to make it.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#28

Post by chaosite » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:09 AM UTC

sanxiyn wrote: post #7

albertgoeswoof wrote: post #2

The author makes a valid point, however the pushback against using OSS as an important hiring signal, is that most people are not privileged with enough spare time to work on OSS outside of their day job. Eg if you have a family, long commute etc. And if they already are an excellent programmer and hitting all expectations, why should they do this? In fact, an employee who’s spending 5-6 hours/day on side projects mi…

Where is pushback against using degrees as an important hiring signal, given many people are not privileged with enough money to go to the university? Where?

This is why scholarships exist and significant effort is being made at getting everyone a chance to attend university.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#29

Post by amasad » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:10 AM UTC

mverwijs wrote: post #25

amasad wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I mentioned, multiple times, that you shouldn't exclude people that don't have a Github profile. All I'm saying is that if you're underprivileged you have this awesome tool, use it. And no I didn't have a lot of free time. I was working and going to school but when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep.

It is the open Internet that levelled the playing field. Of which Github and Open Source are but subsets.

Agreed. However, it was GitHub and not, for example, sourceforge that lowered the barrier to entry for open-source.

The open internet is the substrate on which innovation runs.

Re: GitHub and Open-Source Is a Boon for the Underprivileged

#30

Post by onion2k » Sun, Jun 10, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

amasad wrote: post #21

onion2k wrote: post #10

The point people are making about using GitHub profiles for hiring is that it ignores great developers who don't write code outside of their job (that might be due to other interests, family responsibilities, a second job, whatever). The fact this guy is in a position to write code in his spare time just means he's not in that group, and the fact his open source work on Github specifically landed him a job he wanted…

So I mentioned, multiple times, that you shouldn't exclude people that don't have a Github profile. All I'm saying is that if you're underprivileged you have this awesome tool, use it. And no I didn't have a lot of free time. I was working and going to school but when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep.

when you're young you frankly don't need a whole lot of sleep

You do if you have health issues, or mental health issues, or kids (some young people have them), or a long commute, or a second job, or if you're not young...

It's hard to recognize privilege when you have it.