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The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

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Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#91

Post by volgo »

noirknight wrote: post #68
volgo wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Twitter and Facebook are used frequently to track down foreign combatants to be killed. Should people who work there be shamed as well? In fact, those social media sites have been used to manipulate foreign militant uprisings and sway political discourses (whether in the U.S. or in other countries). Also, people who worked on GPS technology are directly responsible for the GPS-guided missiles that have been fired int…

GPS and other precision guidance systems do help to save civilian casualties by allowing militaries to use smaller and fewer explosives. The designers of GPS have probably saved more lives than any doctors. I want to live in a world without human violence but creating a world like that doesn’t involve banning technology, it requires political action.

And so do weapons, because they can eliminate the very people who are killing civilians. Machine guns and bombs saved millions more Jews from being killed in WWII

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#92

Post by lispm »

ruricolist wrote: post #86
DonHopkins wrote: post #76

I haven't been able to dig up a copy, but I remember there was a file named something like AI: HUMOR; LOGO TURTLES that was a grant proposal written by some people in the LOGO group at the MIT-AI Lab, in response to a military request for proposals, about how they could hatch thousands of LOGO turtles to swarm around the battlefield in geometric patterns to confuse and bewilder the enemy. http://www.donhopkins.com/ho…

What Lisp is this? I can understand what it's doing but it's clearly pre-CL.

That's MACLISP.

http://www.maclisp.info

Common Lisp was later a joint successor to MACLISP

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#94

Post by skybrian »

greggarious wrote: post #72
skybrian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two problems with this argument. You're blaming the military for decisions made by civilian leadership. And, it's not wrong to do what we can to reduce risk both for soldiers and civilians. Adding more risk wouldn't be an improvement. Military spending is certainly tremendously wasteful, though.

>Two problems with this argument. You're blaming the military for decisions made by civilian leadership. We have a volunteer army and have been engaging in "adventures" as far back as Vietnam. No one goes in not knowing what they'll be asked to do.

I do know what you mean, but technically that's false. Soldiers don't what new wars will start or any specifics about what they'll be ordered to do. But, once enlisted, they have to follow orders anyway.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#95

Post by DonHopkins »

lispm wrote: post #92
ruricolist wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Lisp is this? I can understand what it's doing but it's clearly pre-CL.

That's MACLISP. http://www.maclisp.info Common Lisp was later a joint successor to MACLISP

Not to be confused with Mac Common Lisp!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_Common_Lisp

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#96

Post by sandworm101 »

v_lisivka wrote: post #49
sandworm101 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone in the military: yes. There are a great many weapons i dont want. Because by me (and everyone else in uniform) not wanting them they dont exist. Top of that list: plastic schrapnel. I dont want. It isnt manufactured. Therefore even ISIS cannot use it. Also on the list: direct-energy blinding weapons design to destroy the retina. Easily biult, but happily not a thing.

> Also on the list: direct-energy blinding weapons design to destroy the retina. Easily biult, but happily not a thing. They are used by Russians against Ukrainian snipers. Few snipers are already blind at working eye.

Ive seen public reports about this sort of thing. It is hard to verify exactly what is being employed. Sounds like consumer-type lasers, not purpose-biult stuff.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#97

Post by cncrnd »

UncleEntity wrote: post #74
greggarious wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe? When in recent memory has the US military risked significant amounts of soldiers to "keep us safe"? If anything, the US military has made me unsafe . The invasion of Iraq was a disaster. Torture and drone warfare have created scores of "terrorists" - people angry that their civilian family members were killed in a war of aggr…

Actually, the Iraqi people were happy we freed them from the iron-grip of Saddam -- we unfortunately over stayed our welcome. For a while I was seeing a banner on an overpass: "thank you for our freedom, now go home". I kind of think they expected it to be a repeat of Panama with a quick game of "capture the dictator" followed by installing a puppet government but the general level of incompetence (i.e. de-Ba'athific…

Don't fool yourself. The US made life in Iraq miserable through a program of sanctions it refused to remove until Saddam Hussein was no longer in power, these sanctions started in the mid 90s.

Estimates of the effect of these crippling sanctions include half of a million dead. US and UN officials had spoken out against the sanctions calling them war crimes.

If we destroy a country then oust it's dictator who people blame for the poor state of things...are we really the good guy? I don't know if your ignoring this fact or just talking nonsense. The US destroyed Iraq and it has never recovered, and this is a widely accepted fact.

Stupid comment imo, can't believe this is serious and hasn't been called out already.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#98

Post by cmndrkeen »

cncrnd wrote: post #97
UncleEntity wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, the Iraqi people were happy we freed them from the iron-grip of Saddam -- we unfortunately over stayed our welcome. For a while I was seeing a banner on an overpass: "thank you for our freedom, now go home". I kind of think they expected it to be a repeat of Panama with a quick game of "capture the dictator" followed by installing a puppet government but the general level of incompetence (i.e. de-Ba'athific…

Don't fool yourself. The US made life in Iraq miserable through a program of sanctions it refused to remove until Saddam Hussein was no longer in power, these sanctions started in the mid 90s. Estimates of the effect of these crippling sanctions include half of a million dead. US and UN officials had spoken out against the sanctions calling them war crimes. If we destroy a country then oust it's dictator who people b…

Saddam was an aggressive expansionist and brutal dictator. There will always be tragic tradeoffs when dealing with such people.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#99

Post by cmndrkeen »

greggarious wrote: post #84
mieseratte wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, the implication was that since then we've had a volunteer army. Sorry that wasn't clear to you. Perhaps you should revise your writings, because nothing about the sentence would imply the "since then." This is an international forum, not everyone learns the history of US military recruitment practices. > Weird, I was in my early teens then and somehow managed to suss out this was not the case (as did many prom…

>Perhaps you should revise your writings, because nothing about the sentence would imply the "since then." This is an international forum, not everyone learns the history of US military recruitment practices. If someone is not a citizen of the USA, and not familiar with how it's military functions, maybe they should take some time to educate themselves before debating how it should be used. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ >In the lead up…

So prospective military recruits should make sure that the government's position aligns with their political beliefs before enlisting? What about afterwards? Should an isolationist leave the military when we elect an interventionist president, and vice versa?

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#100

Post by JohnStrangeII »

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #32
JohnStrangeII wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is ultimately a decision that everyone has to make on its own, and it's an ethically complex issue with many facets. My take on it is that if you contribute in any way to the development of a weapon that is used in morally unjustifiable ways, then you're complicit to murder and manslaughter, and you should be aware of that. For example, the US is conducting drone strikes in Afghanistan, which are essentially pol…

if you contribute in any way to the development of a weapon that is used in morally unjustifiable ways, then you're complicit to murder and manslaughter, and you should be aware of that. Then you need to basically move out of society. Every western country has provided funds to develop or employ some kind of military weapon that has led to the death of a civilian at some point. If you pay taxes or are not actively an…

False dichotomy. If they occur as unintended side-effects, civilian deaths can under certain circumstances be excusable. It's a matter of scale and ratio of killed combatants to civilians, of the international laws that apply, and whether there is an international mandate for the military intervention. It's also not a matter of "drawing a line in my own head". There is established and ratified international law about these issues and there are signed conventions that prohibit certain practices. There are illegal activities and activities that are permitted or excusable under the rules of war, as codified in various international conventions.

For example, the US is the only country in the world that openly conducts drone strikes on foreign territory for extrajudicial killings of political opponents. Not just in Afghanistan, but also in Yemen and a number of other countries.

To give another example, if a country uses chemical warfare agents against civilians, this is a clear-cut violation of international laws, treaties, and conventions. Moreover, the verdict of experts and international judges does count.

Although there is plenty of room for disagreement and legal procedure, as in any other legally and morally relevant matter, none of these issues are based on "an arbitrary line in my head" at all.

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