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NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

arstechnica.com

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Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#531

Post by JoshCole »

buvanshak wrote: post #525
JoshCole wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I claimed the feature they call "Autopilot" is unsafe because it has only limited capability (as per Tesla's documentation). In citing their documentation, you acknowledge that there communication is enough to deduce the limits of their technology. In claiming that there is not enough data to make declarations about safety, you disavow the validity of your own proclamation of (a lack of) safety. In doing so, you've…

> there communication is enough to deduce the limits of their technology.. Not deducing. By what they explicitly state in the manual. About the "need to keep hands on the wheel always". So again. I am not "deducing" it. >So why isn't the person who coined the term 'homo sapien' blatantly evil for coining the term? I don't know. Was the person who coined the the term trying to sell human beings as being wise? Are peop…

You clearly don't know what deduce means. You've also clearly haven't understood anything I've said during this entire conversation. Or even much of what you've said, since you don't seem to realize you've refuted your own points.

> Tesla is evil because they use lies to SELL. use lies and project a false image to get INVESTMENT. Please keep this in mind when coming up with further examples.

You've utterly failed to establish that they are lying.

> Are you really this misguided or just faking it?

Tesla already has an established history. Therefore, it is not necessary to speculate about future history.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#532

Post by JoshCole »

buvanshak wrote: post #521
JoshCole wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that there are aspects of the Tesla safety record which have caveats, but even when I take those caveats into account, I still come out thinking of the Tesla as being relatively safe. The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update. Eventually for example, that same update feature is expected to bring the car to the point of being superhuman…

>The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update... You don't work in software, right?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116969_tesla-model-3-e...

An ad hominess attack doesn't not trump evidence. My claim is true. The above article talks about an example of an update which improved the safety of the vehicle.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#533

Post by buvanshak »

JoshCole wrote: post #531
buvanshak wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there communication is enough to deduce the limits of their technology.. Not deducing. By what they explicitly state in the manual. About the "need to keep hands on the wheel always". So again. I am not "deducing" it. >So why isn't the person who coined the term 'homo sapien' blatantly evil for coining the term? I don't know. Was the person who coined the the term trying to sell human beings as being wise? Are peop…

You clearly don't know what deduce means. You've also clearly haven't understood anything I've said during this entire conversation. Or even much of what you've said, since you don't seem to realize you've refuted your own points. > Tesla is evil because they use lies to SELL. use lies and project a false image to get INVESTMENT. Please keep this in mind when coming up with further examples. You've utterly failed to…

>You clearly don't know what deduce means.

Please explain.

>You've also clearly haven't understood anything I've said during this entire conversation.

Oh I understood you just fine. I just find it stupid.

>You've utterly failed to establish that they are lying.

That is because you are overly generous with assumptions to justify their claims, which is typical of people who are apologetic of fraudulent entities such as Musk

>Tesla already has an established history...

But they haven't save the planet yet. Please give some thought about what you are writing before responding.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#534

Post by buvanshak »

JoshCole wrote: post #532
buvanshak wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The same feature which adds danger at every update is one that also has the potential to add safety at every update... You don't work in software, right?

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116969_tesla-model-3-e... An ad hominess attack doesn't not trump evidence. My claim is true. The above article talks about an example of an update which improved the safety of the vehicle.

Dude, that is not an attack. Only if you have written software, you ll be aware of how seemingly innocent changes can break it in unexpected ways...And your "proof" article does not change anything...

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#535

Post by perl4ever »

jwr wrote: post #470
Animats wrote: post #42

NTSB: • At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph. • At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle. • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle. • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increas…

As a side note, I find the lane markings in the US confusing. The "gore sections" in Europe are filled with stripes, so there is really no way to mistake them for a lane.

I think stripes are "typical" in the US too. I can't speak to percentages, but they certainly have them around where I live.

Example: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6871358,-73.8004004,90m/data...

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#536

Post by JoshCole »

buvanshak wrote: post #534
JoshCole wrote: post #532

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116969_tesla-model-3-e... An ad hominess attack doesn't not trump evidence. My claim is true. The above article talks about an example of an update which improved the safety of the vehicle.

Dude, that is not an attack. Only if you have written software, you ll be aware of how seemingly innocent changes can break it in unexpected ways...And your "proof" article does not change anything...

You question my credentials, while quoting one of my premises. This is, implicitly, an ad hominem argument against the premise you quoted.

In addition to that, you're arguing against a strawman. I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update. In fact, I explicitly agreed with this claim.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#537

Post by JoshCole »

buvanshak wrote: post #533
JoshCole wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly don't know what deduce means. You've also clearly haven't understood anything I've said during this entire conversation. Or even much of what you've said, since you don't seem to realize you've refuted your own points. > Tesla is evil because they use lies to SELL. use lies and project a false image to get INVESTMENT. Please keep this in mind when coming up with further examples. You've utterly failed to…

>You clearly don't know what deduce means. Please explain. >You've also clearly haven't understood anything I've said during this entire conversation. Oh I understood you just fine. I just find it stupid. >You've utterly failed to establish that they are lying. That is because you are overly generous with assumptions to justify their claims, which is typical of people who are apologetic of fraudulent entities such as…

> That is because you are overly generous with assumptions to justify their claims, which is typical of people who are apologetic of fraudulent entities such as Musk.

No, I actually conceded. I gave up the generous assumptions on safety, backed by data, because you claimed we couldn't generalize from that data and I agree that doing such a generalization would be in some ways misleading.

This is what I mean by a lack of understanding on your part. Even in the post where you are telling me that you understood me just fine, but find my ideas to be stupid, you don't actually address what I'm saying.

As a consequence, I'm not going to continue this conversation. Have a nice day.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#538

Post by [deleted] »

JoshCole wrote: post #536
buvanshak wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, that is not an attack. Only if you have written software, you ll be aware of how seemingly innocent changes can break it in unexpected ways...And your "proof" article does not change anything...

You question my credentials, while quoting one of my premises. This is, implicitly, an ad hominem argument against the premise you quoted. In addition to that, you're arguing against a strawman. I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update. In fact, I explicitly agreed with this claim.

[deleted]

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#539

Post by buvanshak »

JoshCole wrote: post #536
buvanshak wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, that is not an attack. Only if you have written software, you ll be aware of how seemingly innocent changes can break it in unexpected ways...And your "proof" article does not change anything...

You question my credentials, while quoting one of my premises. This is, implicitly, an ad hominem argument against the premise you quoted. In addition to that, you're arguing against a strawman. I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update. In fact, I explicitly agreed with this claim.

>I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update...

The point you are missing is that while update might be slightly enhance safety, the negative, unpredictable impact might be catastrophic. because one is planned and other one is not.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#540

Post by JoshCole »

buvanshak wrote: post #539
JoshCole wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You question my credentials, while quoting one of my premises. This is, implicitly, an ad hominem argument against the premise you quoted. In addition to that, you're arguing against a strawman. I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update. In fact, I explicitly agreed with this claim.

>I never disagreed that there was potential for the safety to be negatively impacted with every update... The point you are missing is that while update might be slightly enhance safety, the negative, unpredictable impact might be catastrophic. because one is planned and other one is not.

No, the point you're pretending I'm missing is that there is this potential. You quoted text in which I explicitly acknowledge the danger of updates. Read it. Also, read further down where I explicitly ask that I not be taken the wrong way, because good points were made.

My acknowledgement only make sense if I agree that there is some level of danger in each update. That is why you're addressing a straw man.

I feel like there is a language barrier:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Or maybe you're being uncharitable with me, because as you put it in our other thread you find the things I've said "stupid". So you are just guessing that I hold the stupidest possible belief you can ascribe me, even when I tell you otherwise.

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