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Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

factorio.com

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Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#261

Post by oldcynic »

Sylos wrote: post #260
oldcynic wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never come across that recommendation before. I can't immediately think of a case where I'd want that or it would be anything but annoying. > 99.9% of people know what they're doing You have very different users than those of anything I've ever written then. :)

I think, Google recommends this for Android application development. Not that I would consider Google a shining beacon of great UIs. Well, and it is also much easier to quickly locate and hit an Undo-button on a small touch screen than it is with a mouse on a giant screen.

Interesting. I dropped Android a year or so back but can't remember bumping into an app doing it like that. Definitely encountered a few "are you sure?" style dialogues though.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#262

Post by city41 »

jaysonelliot wrote: post #19

This has been a debate for as long as I've been a UX designer (mid '90s), and probably much longer. Ultimately, the answer about this UX style is very much the same as a question about writing style—there's no objectively right answer, but you have to be consistent. For example, you can pick up any number of style books from Strunk & White to the Chicago Manual of Style and get different "right" answers about writing…

I feel there is another aspect to consider. The more committal action should require the more conscious movement to invoke. A great example being exiting an app being at the bottom of the file menu. Or on MacOS classic where they placed the trash can in the lower right of the desktop far from everything else.

OK and cancel don't consider this aspect as much, but IMO OK should require more conscious movement to accomplish. I'd rather accidentally cancel sending an email than accidentally prematurely send one for example.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#263

Post by db48x »

smichel17 wrote: post #10
scrollaway wrote: post #6

HN folks will appreciate the entire Factorio blog. They are super open about the design of their game and it's full of micro-postmortems. https://www.factorio.com/blog/ Also, if you're reading this, you are in a demographic that is likely to absolutely love Factorio. Go buy it, it's 20 eur/usd, you won't regret it. Some call it "Programming: The Game".

> Some call it "Programming: The Game". This is actually why I haven't bought it (yet). When I have the urge to program something, I think I'd rather put that towards building something real than playing Factorio.

It's different enough from actual programming that your subconscious can keep working on your real programming while you play. Be warned however, that your subconscious can keep working on your factory while you work...

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#264

Post by rkuykendall-com »

cabaalis wrote: post #99
scrollaway wrote: post #6

HN folks will appreciate the entire Factorio blog. They are super open about the design of their game and it's full of micro-postmortems. https://www.factorio.com/blog/ Also, if you're reading this, you are in a demographic that is likely to absolutely love Factorio. Go buy it, it's 20 eur/usd, you won't regret it. Some call it "Programming: The Game".

I lost at least a week of productivity after buying factorio.

After buying Factorio, I lost January through March of this year.

Worth it though. Probably the best game I've ever played.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#265

Post by rkuykendall-com »

foobar1962 wrote: post #35

> But little I knew, that this is actually specific to windows, and on Linux or macOS, the order is reversed... Did anybody else pick this up? The person has only ever seen Windows. That’s extremely limiting. A later comment talks about how Microsoft designed things... one of the big differences between Mac and (DOS and early Windows) was that Mac developers tended to use the Apple tool kit and design guidelines, but…

> Did anybody else pick this up? The person has only ever seen Windows. That’s extremely limiting.

The original Factorio team ( once they grew to 3 ) developed 100% on Windows, Mac, and Linux respectively. So Twinsen may have very little experience outside of windows, that probably helps him develop an authentic Windows experience, while the Mac and Linux developers do the same, and the result is a great cross platform game.

Disclaimer: My in-game hours for Factorio probably qualify me for Stockholm syndrome, so lots of bias here.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#266

Post by code_duck »

dchest wrote: post #248
code_duck wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an attempt to trick the user into clicking the wrong button. Maybe not dark, since all that happens is it annoyingly opens an website, but nonetheless, it is not pleasant or user friendly to intentionally deceive others into doing something they wish to avoid. I believe that practices that are labeled the dark patterns on websites often have no more impact than that. I'd call it 'user hostile'.

No, it's a attempt to intentionally slow down user. I don't remember nag screens that open websites: it either tells you that you press the wrong button and re-randomizes the button order or quits the program. There are also versions that just have a timer that enable "Continue" button after a few seconds (e.g. https://kinzuakid.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/gsak-nag-scree... ). It's very different from websites that t…

I do recall nag screens that open websites, so that's what I am referring to. I believe Winzip did this, as did other 2000 era software. It seems to me that this happens in many mobile applications in modern times, though I don't know as I don't use many. Since many screens in mobile applications are drawn from the Internet and serve the same purpose as a website, the distinction is not significant.

Opening parts of the application that I don't intend to open in an attempt to force me to look at them is disorienting, distracting from work, and gives rise to emotions that I do not wish to experience.

As far as your conclusions about this not being user hostile, or a gray or dark pattern, I disagree. We must be operating from different definitions of user hostility. I don't wish to participate in psychological warfare and regarding my use of a program. If they wish to cut off or restrict usage of it, they should simply do so.

As far as things like timers or other shareware style restrictions, they seems legitimate to me, though obsolete. It strikes me as a different topic.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#267

Post by wtetzner »

oldcynic wrote: post #261
Sylos wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, Google recommends this for Android application development. Not that I would consider Google a shining beacon of great UIs. Well, and it is also much easier to quickly locate and hit an Undo-button on a small touch screen than it is with a mouse on a giant screen.

Interesting. I dropped Android a year or so back but can't remember bumping into an app doing it like that. Definitely encountered a few "are you sure?" style dialogues though.

The only one that comes to mind is the GMail app. When you swipe to archive an email, it gives you an undo button. I have to say I don't particularly like that UI though. If I accidentally swipe, then I only have a few seconds to undo it. I'd prefer a screen that showed me actions I've performed in the past, and let me undo them. That way I wouldn't have to worry about the undo popup disappearing too quickly.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#268

Post by danaris »

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #194
Too wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you have to manually activate such an option? On windows it's default. One of the things i love about windows is that it's always been designed for keyboard only use, not just bolted on as an afterthought. Every dialog, widget, application and feature can be used with only the keyboard and it's fast, easy and predictable how to. Unfortunately since windows 8 there's been some regressions in this area with the ne…

Keyboard support on the Mac is terrible . It's probably the biggest flaw of the OS, imo. You wouldn't believe some of the ridiculousness - for example, the page up/down, home/end keys are application-specific in their behaviour. Moreover, they sometimes move the view, but not the cursor - an insane behaviour. I regularly find myself moving to the top of a document using the keyboard, then remembering I'm wasting my t…

> Moreover, they sometimes move the view, but not the cursor - an insane behaviour.

It's an incredibly useful behaviour.

I can't tell you how many times I've had my cursor ready to type a method name, realized I didn't recall the precise wording of the method or the order or type of its arguments, and paged my way up to where the method was defined in the same file...then not had to labouriously search my way back to where I was and click in the right spot to type, but just start typing as soon as I had the information. Bam, it types it in the right spot and jumps the view back to it for me.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#269

Post by pier25 »

yellowapple wrote: post #139
pier25 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my bank web application the OK button is on the left, and... both buttons are RED because that's the brand's color! It's a terrible web app.

Speaking of banks with terrible websites, my credit union's login page features a checkbox for "Forgot my password", which is not only confusing in and of itself (" I need to enter my password to reset it?") but also is exactly where you'd expect the "Remember me?" checkbox to appear, meaning that any instinctual attempt for me to tell the site to remember who I am will instead result in me resetting my password. I'm…

> I'm entirely convinced that banking website design guidelines are driven entirely by a seething hatred for the end-user.

I've thought about this and (in all seriousness) I think the reason is that the tech banking sector must be plagued with ancient programmers that don't give a damn about UI and design.

Re: Ok-Cancel versus Cancel-Ok

#270

Post by earenndil »

throwawayjava wrote: post #76
jaysonelliot wrote: post #19

This has been a debate for as long as I've been a UX designer (mid '90s), and probably much longer. Ultimately, the answer about this UX style is very much the same as a question about writing style—there's no objectively right answer, but you have to be consistent. For example, you can pick up any number of style books from Strunk & White to the Chicago Manual of Style and get different "right" answers about writing…

> So the answer from this veteran UX designer would be: Use whichever placement your users are going to be the most familiar with, but whichever you choose, be 100% consistent with the choice you make. What are your thoughts on how smartphones might impact this left vs. right debate? The button on the right is accessible without using just one hand (tapping with thumb while holding in palm), but I need two hands to t…

I alternate; sometimes left, sometimes right.
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