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The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

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Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#21

Post by v_lisivka »

grumdan wrote: post #15
cmndrkeen wrote: post #8

Everyone acts like military research is obviously evil. Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe?

> Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe? If this was the only thing the weapons were used for, then maybe people wouldn't be upset about this kind of stuff. The same arms will however also be used to extrajudicially assassinate people based on nothing else than their phone signal, in countries we are not at war with; they might be sold to regimes like Saudi Arabia…

Are you sure you want to be unarmed in front of enemy just because someone else may use your weapons unresponsively?

Look at Ukraine then. Ukraine exchanged their nuclear arsenal for promises of safety by Russia, Britain, and USA. Is Ukraine safe place now?

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#22

Post by v_lisivka »

jdietrich wrote: post #11
cmndrkeen wrote: post #8

Everyone acts like military research is obviously evil. Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe?

>Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe? At best, it's a zero-sum trap. We need to research new weapons because they are researching new weapons because we are researching new weapons.

We (in Ukraine) need to research new weapons because Russians kills us, and USA and Britain forgot(?) about their promises.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#23

Post by bshepard »

_trampeltier wrote: post #12

Todays war are different than WW2. Today is more like the US military needs a country to play with (also NSA, ...). Today is more like let's bomb a random country in the middle east.

ww2 was more like that than you think. Check out Nicholson Baker's "HUMAN SMOKE"

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#24

Post by volgo »

grumdan wrote: post #15
cmndrkeen wrote: post #8

Everyone acts like military research is obviously evil. Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe?

> Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe? If this was the only thing the weapons were used for, then maybe people wouldn't be upset about this kind of stuff. The same arms will however also be used to extrajudicially assassinate people based on nothing else than their phone signal, in countries we are not at war with; they might be sold to regimes like Saudi Arabia…

Twitter and Facebook are used frequently to track down foreign combatants to be killed. Should people who work there be shamed as well?

In fact, those social media sites have been used to manipulate foreign militant uprisings and sway political discourses (whether in the U.S. or in other countries).

Also, people who worked on GPS technology are directly responsible for the GPS-guided missiles that have been fired into Syria and other parts of Middle East. Should those people be ashamed as well?

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#26

Post by chiefalchemist »

sametmax wrote: post #14
cmndrkeen wrote: post #8

Everyone acts like military research is obviously evil. Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe?

"evil" assume we attach a moral judgment to the people in the military. But personally I don't. I understand why they do it. I understand the cost. I know the pros and the cons. I don't have a hate for people in the military. I'm not even against weapons, after all I go to the shooting range. I just don't want to have anything to do with the activity of war and I'm lucky enough to have life currently giving me the fr…

Yes. But the excessive DoD budget is unconscionable.

"We spend more on defense than the next ten countries combined."

- POTUS Obama - State of The Union 2016

What makes matters even worse is we're still building (over-budget) fighter jets while our adversaries are focusing on cyber based "weapons."

If we have more military but are less safe then something is not what it is said to be.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#27

Post by zajd »

volgo wrote: post #24
grumdan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe? If this was the only thing the weapons were used for, then maybe people wouldn't be upset about this kind of stuff. The same arms will however also be used to extrajudicially assassinate people based on nothing else than their phone signal, in countries we are not at war with; they might be sold to regimes like Saudi Arabia…

Twitter and Facebook are used frequently to track down foreign combatants to be killed. Should people who work there be shamed as well? In fact, those social media sites have been used to manipulate foreign militant uprisings and sway political discourses (whether in the U.S. or in other countries). Also, people who worked on GPS technology are directly responsible for the GPS-guided missiles that have been fired int…

> Twitter and Facebook are used frequently to track down foreign combatants to be killed. Should people who work there be shamed as well?

yes, and not only for the reason you listed (although that certainly is one)

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#28

Post by sametmax »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #26
sametmax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"evil" assume we attach a moral judgment to the people in the military. But personally I don't. I understand why they do it. I understand the cost. I know the pros and the cons. I don't have a hate for people in the military. I'm not even against weapons, after all I go to the shooting range. I just don't want to have anything to do with the activity of war and I'm lucky enough to have life currently giving me the fr…

Yes. But the excessive DoD budget is unconscionable. "We spend more on defense than the next ten countries combined." - POTUS Obama - State of The Union 2016 What makes matters even worse is we're still building (over-budget) fighter jets while our adversaries are focusing on cyber based "weapons." If we have more military but are less safe then something is not what it is said to be.

Oh but that's not a military problem per say as much as an American problem. Most countries in Europe have an army, and the bomb, but we don't do things that way.

I think it's important to separate the 2 debates, one is quite universal, while the second one is a contextual issue to solve.

Re: The ties between Silicon Valley and the military run deep

#29

Post by JohnStrangeII »

cmndrkeen wrote: post #8

Everyone acts like military research is obviously evil. Is it really so terrible to research arms for the people who risk their lives keep us safe?

This is ultimately a decision that everyone has to make on its own, and it's an ethically complex issue with many facets.

My take on it is that if you contribute in any way to the development of a weapon that is used in morally unjustifiable ways, then you're complicit to murder and manslaughter, and you should be aware of that.

For example, the US is conducting drone strikes in Afghanistan, which are essentially political assassinations. These are condemned by almost any independent expert on international human rights and come with a very high death toll of civilians, including many women and children. In fact, the number of non-combatant civilian victims is routinely higher than the number of targets. Moreover, they are routinely conducted over the territory of another, sovereign country without any international mandate, without any judicial oversight, and without any trial.

If you participate in developing the drones or missiles that used in these strikes, or support them in any other way, then you are making yourself at least partially guilty of murder or manslaughter. From a moral perspective, it barely matters whether you believe or feel that the drone strikes keep your country safe. Extrajudicial killings of political opponents in foreign countries you are not at war with are illegal and immoral even if they have perceived or real positive side effects for your country.

That's just an example to illustrate that it matters a lot for which government you develop weapons and what track record your country has in terms of human rights, military aggressions against other countries or lack thereof, and so on. There's probably less of a problem if you develop weapons for the Swedish army than if you develop weapons for Russia or the US.

It also depends on the types of weapons, of course. Don't tell me it would be fine to develop chemical warfare agents, outlawed types of anti-person land mines, or autonomous killer robots, because they would 'keep your country safe'. Some technologies are just despicable. There's a reason why lasers that blind soldiers on the battlefield are outlawed.

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