Linus Torvalds on aliasing • Hacker News Board

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#181

Post by ralfn » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #168

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before maki…

When somebody speaks their mind, everybody around them knows where they stand.

I doubt there is difference between about how often people resent other people around the world. But I do consider it more humane if resentment isn't hidden under the surface. It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#182

Post by hfdgiutdryg » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:12 AM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #148

mosselman wrote: post #119

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused like this by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He also does no service to his own arguments by peppering them with childish swearing because things like "So standards are not some kind of holy book th…

by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He never needed any protection; Linus always wrote like this. Back in the argument with Tanenbaum in '92, when he was a nobody, he already wrote stuff like "your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. I can only hope (and assume) that Amoeba doesn't suck like minix does."

So he got his start by being toxic toward what has become the most-deployed OS in the world.

https://mobile.linuxtoday.com/security/minix-the-most-popula...

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#183

Post by AsyncAwait » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:13 AM UTC

alexkrycek wrote: post #157

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

If only us silly Americans talked so "honestly" with our wives: "Why did you cook this? Are you fucking stupid?" I'm in the military, and if you can't control what you say, you shouldn't be respected.

This is not aimed at you specifically, but I find this decorum policing off punting. Like the U.S. military may be able to control what they say, but some of the things it has actually done are less than nice.

I don't care that Linus swears, he hasn't invaded anyone or harmed anyone as far as I know. I don't care that Trump swears, I care about the stupid stuff he actually does.

Linus may swear, but he also protects us from bad code and I value that, because in the end, words don't do anything, actions do.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#184

Post by ralfn » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:16 AM UTC

alexkrycek wrote: post #157

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

If only us silly Americans talked so "honestly" with our wives: "Why did you cook this? Are you fucking stupid?" I'm in the military, and if you can't control what you say, you shouldn't be respected.

In military terms Linus is the president of his world (the Linux kernel).

In the military with all the hierarchy this wouldn't happen because no small private would be arrogant enough to throw their opinion in the top generals and president face without being asked.

The whole point of the rudeness is that it does give space for people to voice their opinion irregardless of their rank. Only at the risk of being somewhat insulted.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#185

Post by ralfn » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:18 AM UTC

rdsubhas wrote: post #171

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

While Linus may be right, why is it that we always find only "Linus ranting out against people" threads that trend? In a positive way, why don't we have "Linus gets ranted against" posts? Is it because Linus is always right? Or is it because nobody speaks up against Linus? Or is it because Linus isn't actively coding much since git days? Or is it just because it happens but doesn't get as much visibility? I'm just as…

Since even the people complaining about it are eating it up like donuts. They just don't want to admit it turns them on.

The honest reaction to any post like this is to just report it because the only entertainment factor is the drama.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#186

Post by hfdgiutdryg » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:20 AM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #83

iliaznk wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should he NOT being rude? Has anyone ever answered him in the same way? Has anyone ever publicly explained him that while being a sociopathic nerd he still must comply to some basic rules of conduct like we all do. The guy is willingly putting on and supporting the public image he's got and, obviously, loving it. I know, that he's smart and what not, but why should it be an excuse for being an asshole? I just rea…

> Why should he NOT being rude? Has anyone ever answered him in the same way? Several, but no one that mattered enough with respect to Linux for his opinion to matter in return. His OS, his rules. Others can always fork it if they have an issue with that. It seems to have worked fine as a gatekeeping technique for the last 25+ years, even if it hurts some feelings. Linus goes for an in-the-trenches, rough camaraderie…

Linus goes for an in-the-trenches, rough camaraderie, approach

He's an outright toxic and abusive person. Characterizing a lack of toxic, abusive behavior as "professional soft spoken cubicle workers approach" is disingenuous.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#187

Post by cbr » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:23 AM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #168

ralfn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like y…

> As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before maki…

> Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines

Keep in mind that you're much more likely to see it when he explodes at someone, because that's more entertaining to read. Most of what he writes in the ordinary work of building a kernel is unobjectionable.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#188

Post by squarefoot » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:24 AM UTC

I also wouldn't like being addressed like that and if I was I probably would quit working with him, but he gave a very clear explanation why he became more direct in dealing with people. And unless one lives that same experience in his own shoes it's not easy to make an opinion.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#189

Post by davidgould » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:28 AM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #2

I sometimes wonder what the world of computing, or even the world in general, would look like today if Linus Torvalds hadn't existed, or happened to have not gotten into computers.

Windows NT. Linux not only killed off the existing commercial Unix's it also stopped Microsoft's takeover of the server space.

Re: Linus Torvalds on aliasing

#190

Post by richmarr » Fri, Jun 08, 2018, 10:29 AM UTC

zwischenzug wrote: post #158

richmarr wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably your wife is dealing with complex issues where there are real conflicts that require real words, unlike this situation. This is a non-conflict that Torvalds turned into one. In this case, Torvalds is swearing at someone who agrees with him (see Andy Shevchenko's response) because he hasn't bothered to seek clarification before calling it "pure and utter garbage".

I think people's ideas of what's a real conflict can vary. I don't know what Linus's motivation was, probably you know better than me. Is it possible he's trying to engender a culture where Andy pushes back harder on these rationales, rather than just being polite? Quoting Andy: Yeah, there were few reasons why I decide to make that patch (OK, it seems I staked on not the best reason).

If Torvalds is trying to engender a culture by being the only one swearing then I'd be very curious where he learned that technique and how he was measuring its success over the many years he's exhibited that behaviour. Occam's Razor suggests that the more likely cause is that he's just an angry man who can't (or doesn't want to) moderate his behaviour.

I don't want to assume too much about your wife's job or personality, but I'd also assume she would swear in a way that was reciprocal with those under therapy, based on a communication style they had established together... as opposed to her swearing at them while they were being perfectly polite.