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NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

arstechnica.com

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Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#421

Post by kwhitefoot »

lscotte wrote: post #300
Animats wrote: post #42

NTSB: • At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph. • At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle. • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle. • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increas…

Wow, Tesla doesn't have auto emergency braking? Even my Kia has that - adaptive cruise for following cars, auto emergency braking for stationary objects (and when the car in front of you suddenly slows down). Yeah, I'll keep my Kia...

My 2015 S70D (AP1 presumably) does start complaining if it thinks I'm about to collide with a stationary vehicle. Whether it would actually stop the car is not something I have had the nerve to test. Perhaps I should find a deserted car park and put out some cardboard boxes and see what happens. The problem is that cardboard doesn't reflect radar well.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#422

Post by LoSboccacc »

slg wrote: post #137
txcwpalpha wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is exactly why all of these articles recently about how "great" it is that Tesla sends out frequent OTA updates are ridiculous. Frequent, unpredictable updates with changelogs that just read "Improvements and bug fixes" is fine when we're talking about a social media app, but is entirely unacceptable when we're talking about the software that controls a 2 ton hunk of metal flying at 70mph with humans inside…

This isn't an issue specific to Tesla as all automakers are now making cars that are more and more dependent on software. So what is the right way to handle these updates? You mentioned a clear flaw with OTA updates, but there are also numerous advantages. For example, the recent Tesla brake software issue was fixed with an OTA update. That immediately made cars safer. Toyota had a similar problem a few years ago and…

At the very _least_ when you introduce a change in behavior have it to be enabled from the user through the dashboard. This creates at least one touch point for user education.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#423

Post by kwhitefoot »

stephengillie wrote: post #377
ingenieroariel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happens with regular adaptive cruise control on my Ford, when the cruise control set point is a lot higher than the current speed: the car accelerates after another car clears the lane and ram into things.

My Camry Hybrid sometimes picks up cars in the lane next to me and a car length ahead, to match speed with them. And sometimes it loses the car ahead of it on turns. I try to aim the top of the steering wheel at the car ahead of me, and this seems to help the sensor a great deal. On turns, it doesn't accelerate, only maintains speed; can be frustrating if you want to act like a racecar driver. For example, following…

> Despite having adaptive cruise set to 60mph (or higher), it will stay at 45mph until after the curve, and only accelerate after ~5 seconds of straight roadway.

My 2015 S70D does something like this too.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#424

Post by Piskvorrr »

Lucent wrote: post #402
martin_bech wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hand detection is pretty good. You only need to rest your hands on the wheel. Have a model s as my daily driver.

Then it must vary significantly per car. I have to squeeze the wheel pretty hard to dismiss the message on mine.

Or, perhaps more probably, by driver. I am far more inclined to think that a large variation in hands exists, rather than a large variation in mass-produced steering wheels.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#425

Post by kwhitefoot »

TheForumTroll wrote: post #72
martin_bech wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hand detection is pretty good. You only need to rest your hands on the wheel. Have a model s as my daily driver.

Lots of drivers have problems where they have to "shake" the wheel to make the car understand that they do indeed have their hands on the wheel. The system is pretty rubbish.

It seems to me that my 2015 S70D expects me to be holding the wheel firmly enough to actually take action.

Mostly I just keep one hand lightly on the wheel when driving down a motorway with autosteer on and just give it a gentle squeeze or wiggle once in a while. If I use it on less good roads I keep both hands on the wheel in the proper location for taking control.

It seems pretty good to me.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#426

Post by metafunctor »

raldi wrote: post #76
Animats wrote: post #42

NTSB: • At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph. • At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle. • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle. • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increas…

> The paint on the right edge of the gore marking, as seen in Google Maps, is worn Indeed; here's a close-up of the critical area. Note that the darker stripe on the bottom of the photo is NOT the crucial one; the one that the car was supposed to follow is the much more faded one above that that you can barely see: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.410912,-122.0757037,3a,75y,2... (Note that I'm not blaming the faded pa…

Are these kinds of lane-dividers not painted with heavy yellow diagonal stripes in the US? Is the divider equipped with reflective material and/or lights to make sure drivers notice it? Is the divider actually necessary, or could it be replaced with gravel so people don't need to hit a concrete wall when they make a mistake?

I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. Autopilot needs to be fixed, but this road is also super dangerous and probably would not be allowed in the EU.

How often do non-autopilot cars fatally crash here? This does look like a bit of death trap to me!

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#427

Post by LoSboccacc »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #146
slg wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't an issue specific to Tesla as all automakers are now making cars that are more and more dependent on software. So what is the right way to handle these updates? You mentioned a clear flaw with OTA updates, but there are also numerous advantages. For example, the recent Tesla brake software issue was fixed with an OTA update. That immediately made cars safer. Toyota had a similar problem a few years ago and…

>This isn't an issue specific to Tesla as all automakers are now making cars that are more and more dependent on software. Cars have been dependent on software for a long time (literally decades). This isn't something new. Even combustion engine cars have had software inside of them that controls the operation of the engine, and this software is vigorously tested for safety issues (because most car manufacturers unde…

I agree with everything you said except this:

> being able to know exactly how your car will react in all situations

If one depends on intimate knowledge of his own car for safety then he’s likely already driving outside the safety envelope of the code, which was written to provide enough safety margin for people driving bad cars from 40yr ago.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#428

Post by Traubenfuchs »

kevinchen wrote: post #392

Tesla Autopilot should be recalled via the next OTA update. The “Autopilot” branding implies that users need not pay attention, when in reality, the system needs interventions at infrequent but hard-to-predict times. If an engineer at Apple can’t figure it out, then the average person has no chance. Their software sets users up to fail. (Where failure means permanent disability or death.) Inevitably, Musk fans will c…

> But we do know that when it fails, it fails in different

Oh the hubris of man. I am not even a Tesla fan, but still. "I'd rather have 2 of 100 people drive against a wall instead of 1 of 100 automatic cars driving against a wall.", that's what you are essentially saying, no?

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#429

Post by friendzis »

omgwtfbyobbq wrote: post #214
txcwpalpha wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This isn't an issue specific to Tesla as all automakers are now making cars that are more and more dependent on software. Cars have been dependent on software for a long time (literally decades). This isn't something new. Even combustion engine cars have had software inside of them that controls the operation of the engine, and this software is vigorously tested for safety issues (because most car manufacturers unde…

>Cars have been dependent on software for a long time (literally decades). This isn't something new. Even combustion engine cars have had software inside of them that controls the operation of the engine, and this software is vigorously tested for safety issues (because most car manufacturers understand a fault with such software could result in someone's death). Tesla seems to be the only major car manufacturer that…

> The TACC offered by most (if not all) manufacturers can't differentiate between the surroundings and stopped vehicles.

Literally every car I have driven equipped with Cruise Control and Collision Avoidance (TACC) hits the brakes and slows down to 20-ish km/h if it senses ANYTHING moving slower (including stationary) in front of the car at possible collision path.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#430

Post by dnautics »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #408
wooter wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

fdareview.org - the fda kills more people in late/non approvals than it saves through denials. this is why compassionate use has been on the rise

It does not, in any way, imply that pharmaceutical companies would do a better job if left to their own devices and market pressure .

There's a lot of sunlight between letting pharma companies run rampant and having the FDA. One could imagine private non-profit testing and qualifications standards organizations along the lines of the underwriters laboratories
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