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The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

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Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#341

Post by onyva »

osrec wrote: post #129

IT miracle? More like IT sham. The quality of engineers in India is sketchy at best in my experience. Lack of understanding and innovation is rife across the board, but they seem to be great at selling their service. This may be because of the "yes" culture other comments have mentioned, but I would guess it's got a lot to do with a massively undercut price. It is, however, a false economy, because you often end up i…

About this particular comment and elsewhere in this thread, the sense of moral superiority westerners still have after trump, Facebook, Cambridge Analytica is just mind boggling. One would assume that by now one would realize one’s short comings. It also proves that there nothing intellectually or morally superior except for speaking English better then your average rickshaw driver in India. Is some parts of the USA even that’s doubtable.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#342

Post by Rjevski »

Alterlife wrote: post #256
tome wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were they in India? That's specifically what osrec said. Nothing about Indians.

I am in India, and I can't help but feel insulted by this comment. Is there some kind of magic that makes engineers better when you take them out of India? There are some great developers here and plenty of crappy ones. And some of the worst developers I've worked with are Americans in America. ---- edit: I'll also add here that a many of the best developers I've worked with are American as well.

I think the issue isn’t Indian engineers living in India, but bad management of India-based companies who set the bar low enough for lots of bad “engineers” to join, making the experience unbearable for any good engineers that work there (if any). As a result the good ones leave and make a have career abroad.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#343

Post by loco5niner »

Alterlife wrote: post #329
osrec wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't feel insulted. It's merely a general observation relating to culture in certain geographies, not to be applied to you specifically. For example, an Indian in India may not think twice before throwing their food wrapper on the road side, but would probably never do that when on holiday in London (if they did, society or police would reprimand them for it and correct their action). Similarly in tech, certa…

I didn't mean to single you or anyone else out. I've seen this sentiment echoed in multiple online forums and as one of them incompetent developers in India, I feel the need to defend myself.

> ...and as one of them incompetent developers in India, I feel the need to defend myself.

Is there a typo (or 2) in here somewhere?

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#344

Post by abakker »

bane wrote: post #204

I think another way to look at it: Many Indians who were legitimately good ended up in high paying jobs where they then used that money and skill to emigrate to countries with more comfortable standards of living. In my area, the Indian immigrant community has exploded, and almost entirely within the technology sector to start with, but now rapidly expanding to other areas as family members sponsor other family membe…

This exactly. Someone in another thread mentioned worker turnover. Turnover is a result not just management challenges, but incredible job mobility that comes with the demonstration of skill.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#345

Post by loco5niner »

imglorp wrote: post #199
mieseratte wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At work, we've had issues with Indian candidates informing us during interviews that they've already recently accepted an offer / started a new job, but that they're willing to come work for us instead. Completely oblivious to the fact of how big of an immediate red flag that is.

In some cultures, you're smart to get ahead any way you can, and they'd call anyone a fool who followed some set of rules or principles instead of getting ahead. For them, rules are artificial, arbitrary social constructs with zero benefit, while results are concrete. It's hard to argue they're wrong.

> and they'd call anyone a fool who followed some set of rules or principles instead of getting ahead

> It's hard to argue they're wrong.

Except for the fact that in this very thread there seems to be quite a backlash against them. Seems to be very short-term and selfish thinking.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#346

Post by abakker »

chvid wrote: post #102
plinkplonk wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I really hope that you guys learn a less bureaucratic and hierarical way of working" These generalizations make as much sense as me telling a random American HN user "I really hope that you guys stop indulging your blood lust by invading other countries and killing millions of innocents to make profits for your munitions industry and you as a country become less bloodthirsty" Most Americans are not killers, though t…

Yeah. We should be careful with generalizations; and it is easy to go overboard in a short general sentence (like I did). However there is such a thing as differences in work culture. And it is very reasonable to talk about differences amongst countries. And on the mentioned scales (bureaucracies and hierarchies) Denmark and India sit on each their extremes. That India's IT-industry has been driven by external demand…

Well, India's industry has been driven by _market demand_.The market for large scale app dev work has been more profitable and better outside of India because there was more money chasing those projects outside of India. If you want to be a successful business, sell what people are buying.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#347

Post by [deleted] »

imglorp wrote: post #199
mieseratte wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At work, we've had issues with Indian candidates informing us during interviews that they've already recently accepted an offer / started a new job, but that they're willing to come work for us instead. Completely oblivious to the fact of how big of an immediate red flag that is.

In some cultures, you're smart to get ahead any way you can, and they'd call anyone a fool who followed some set of rules or principles instead of getting ahead. For them, rules are artificial, arbitrary social constructs with zero benefit, while results are concrete. It's hard to argue they're wrong.

[deleted]

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#348

Post by reaperducer »

chappar wrote: post #271
mieseratte wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At work, we've had issues with Indian candidates informing us during interviews that they've already recently accepted an offer / started a new job, but that they're willing to come work for us instead. Completely oblivious to the fact of how big of an immediate red flag that is.

I am not sure how you can generalize. I would not consider it as a red flag unless the candidate in question has history of hopping too quickly. I have direct/indirect experience of being both the sides. I once left a company in couple of months because company's culture was totally different than what I expected. I have also seen a friend of mine getting fired in couple of months after joining a company because comp…

It is absolutely a red flag. If you've committed to another company, then you have no business interviewing elsewhere.

If you don't take a job seriously at one company, why would I expect you to take a job seriously at my company?

If I offer you a job, how can I be sure you'll show up for it, and not just take the next offer that comes along? I can't. So you're no longer in consideration as soon as you tell me you're disloyal to your other company.

In some industries in America (especially media companies, but it's also common in high-end retail), if your boss hears that you're looking for another job, you're immediately fired. Sometimes it's even written into the contract, if you have one.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#349

Post by commandlinefan »

bhtru wrote: post #281
varjag wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is common to see Chinese names in some top tier science publications coming from America. At the same time, the bulk of science coming from mainland China is junk. So there well can be some magic at work. That, or selection.

If you can make it in the West you’ll leave your homeland typically. Tech is a sector that often can is merit based so it’s not difficult for foreign engineers to prove their worth and make the migration (relative to other service sector industries).

> merit based

Still, in spite of some concerted efforts to change that...

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#350

Post by koala_man »

koolhead17 wrote: post #150

We have a saying here in India: "You pay peanuts, you hire donkeys". So a lot many comments in the thread is either generalization or a confirmation bias. The India I know and software developers I know of are no less either in dream or dedication from peers in Silicon Valley or any other part of developed world. :)

Yep. I'm astonished that otherwise capable engineers accept the reasoning that since so many of the $4/hour lowest bid Indian devs they've worked with are subpar, it must be that Indian devs are just generally bad.
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