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Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

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Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#181

Post by protonimitate »

eigenspace wrote: post #166
protonimitate wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have mild ADD and tons of issues with migraines. Caffeine helps on both fronts. Do what's best for you, personally, and not what some internet stranger thinks is the correct way to function.

I know nothing about your medical issues, but to bring up a counter-point, it's possible that your 'mild ADD' and migraines are the symptoms of insufficient sleep quantity of quality. Medicating with caffeine could be counterproductive if that's the case.

Fair point, but I get 8 hours of solid sleep a night and can drink caffeine up until I go to bed and it won't keep me awake.

I've also done sleep studies and endless 'preventative' medicines for migraines but nothing has worked so far.

Caffeine is definitely not a cure-all, and I don't want to argue that it's good to use, but it's also not fair to blanket statement and say that everyone should avoid it at all costs :)

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#182

Post by 24gttghh »

tonyarkles wrote: post #162
24gttghh wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just Germany, or Japan, but US Bomber pilots used Amphetamines in WW2[0], and the infantry in Vietnam[1]. [0] https://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/10.1162/JINH_a_00212 (I could only find this abstract about US use.) [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/04/the-drugs...

Not just in WW2 and Vietnam, but much more recently than that. Search "go pills" in this unfortunately Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarnak_Farm_incident

NBC from 2003:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3071789/ns/us_news-only/t/go-pills...

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#183

Post by madcaptenor »

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

But sometimes you can't get enough sleep. One example is if you have a newborn baby. Ask me how I know.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#184

Post by eigenspace »

madcaptenor wrote: post #183
eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

But sometimes you can't get enough sleep. One example is if you have a newborn baby. Ask me how I know.

Fair enough, but my comment was aimed at people trying to get less sleep in order to fit more productivity into the day. I think there are situations where one has no choice but to be sleep deprived but those are extremis situations like war and having a newborn baby.

Sleep science suggests that if we must be sleep deprived we should do everything we can to limit it. If you're the parent of a newborn, that likely means napping every chance you get to at least limit the damage you've done to your sleep through constant interurptions. Caffine will reduce the effectiveness of those naps.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#185

Post by adenverd »

kleim wrote: post #168
flipp3r wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this is actually a thing! I thought it was just me. As someone who used to drink a LOT of cola-cola during their teens, caffeine really fucked me up good. I only noticed I was dependant (addicted) on caffeine after a friend pointed out I only felt good again on certain days after coming back from a client where there was no cola available. I took a little bottle with me to the client and felt "normal" that day.…

Could you elaborate about the headaches in the weekend? I also noticed I can not do much during the day without coffee but I never linked my headaches to caffeine.

The suspected mechanism for caffeine withdrawal headaches is that more blood is flowing to your brain than it's accustomed to [1]. Caffeine works as a vasoconstrictor, reducing cerebral blood flow (CBF) by an average of 27% across users with varying levels of dependency. [2] When you reduce or eliminate caffeine, CBF spikes, causing "weekend" headaches and migraines.

In my personal experience, weaning yourself off caffeine over the course of a couple of weeks is drastically easier than attempting to quit cold turkey. My preferred method of reducing or eliminating caffeine dependence is to reduce intake by 25% every 3-4 days. Once you're down below 50mg per day, you can switch to tea or quit without any physical side effects.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9170342 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19219847

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#186

Post by [deleted] »

protonimitate wrote: post #78
nottorp wrote: post #45

How about, you know, sleeping? Working in a startup isn't being parachuted behind the enemy lines where your life depends on staying alert. Go home, you'll work better tomorrow.

I have mild ADD and tons of issues with migraines. Caffeine helps on both fronts. Do what's best for you, personally, and not what some internet stranger thinks is the correct way to function.

[deleted]

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#187

Post by merinowool »

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

This is a sound advice. I spent 10 years of my life trying to squeeze as much time awake time as I can using tons of coffee and that almost ruined my life and got me nowhere. I have managed to get some success in life once I gave up on that idea and was productive when I was feeling productive without forcing it. If I can't do anything during the day? Fine. If I feel sleepy? I go to sleep. It was important though, to wake up at the same time in the morning. I was unable to kick off the coffee addiction, but reduced it just one cup in the morning. I find coffee more difficult to quit than cigarettes.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#188

Post by sp3000 »

protonimitate wrote: post #181
eigenspace wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know nothing about your medical issues, but to bring up a counter-point, it's possible that your 'mild ADD' and migraines are the symptoms of insufficient sleep quantity of quality. Medicating with caffeine could be counterproductive if that's the case.

Fair point, but I get 8 hours of solid sleep a night and can drink caffeine up until I go to bed and it won't keep me awake. I've also done sleep studies and endless 'preventative' medicines for migraines but nothing has worked so far. Caffeine is definitely not a cure-all, and I don't want to argue that it's good to use, but it's also not fair to blanket statement and say that everyone should avoid it at all costs :…

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/sleep-newzzz/20131...

Caffeine disrupts the quality of sleep even if you are not aware and feel like you are sleeping fine. I'm not saying this is the cause of any issues you have, but just want that to be considered.

Attention and focus have strong correlations with sleep quality. I say this as a fellow "ADD-er", and only point this out because, being in the health field, I see so many people who completely neglect proper sleep hygiene and then wonder why they feel like crap all the time. This makes me suspect that most of the population has no clue how important proper sleep is to quality of life.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#189

Post by merinowool »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #19

Club mate is the drink of choice in the start up community in Berlin. I've made the mistake of drinking that in the evening a couple of times and regretted that at 4am by being wide awake and unproductive the next day. If you are not familiar, mate tea which this is based on contains a form of caffeine that is particularly potent. It's like drinking multiple espresso shots. Don't drink this if you have blood pressure…

This is dead end and really should be illegal to force employees to do that. I hate when companies are trying to squeeze every inch of you, just to get their sorry startup some funding to burn. If you have so much work given to do that you need to "medicate" yourself with stimulants, then you are getting shafted. I find it bizarre that such exploitation culture is allowed. Always thought that Germany has fair employment laws.

Re: Caffeine dosing strategies to optimize alertness during sleep loss

#190

Post by tytytytytytytyt »

eigenspace wrote: post #165

To everyone thinking about using caffine or other drugs to combat sleep: all of the latest sleep reseach would suggest that 'optimizing alertness during sleep loss' is a fool's errand if what you want is productivity. The real goal must be to ensure you get enough sleep, not that you medicate yourself with caffine to stop your body from getting sleep signals. Think about it this way: If prolonged sleep were not absol…

> It should be obvious that if we evolved to do that, there would be gigantic benefits to it

For the environment in which it evolved, right?

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