NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash • Hacker News Board

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#51

Post by Amezarak » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

gwern wrote: post #10

nwrk wrote: post #2

The report itself - worth of reading https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/...

No surprise there about it steering into the barrier or Tesla not-quite-lying about him getting warnings, but I'm surprised that he apparently wasn't dead on impact but survived all the way to the hospital? So even a three-car pileup with the Tesla steering straight into a barrier at 71MPH & accelerating, with the car catching on fire & being reduced to a husk, still isn't enough to kill a driver immediately. In a wa…

Modern cars are remarkably safe. I've been in a very high speed head-on collision in a Honda and not only survived, but was completely uninjured other than some whiplash.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#52

Post by MBCook » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:12 PM UTC

sjm-lbm wrote: post #17

cf498 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No idea about tesla, but how do you screw up hand detenction?

It's based off measuring torque on the steering column, not some sort of (say) heat or pressure sensors on the wheel itself. So, having your hands on the wheel and not moving them can be sensed by the Tesla as "not having your hands on the wheel".

In my car (a Honda) I can have my hands on the wheel and if I’m not doi enough steering it will yell at me.

There are one or two spots around town that are straight enough that I don’t need to give any steering input and it will sometimes flag me there even though my hands were on the wheel the whole time.

On a freeway? Don’t think I’ve ever had thay happen though.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#53

Post by dogma1138 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:13 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #3

“[Driver’s] hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash. Tesla has said that Huang received warnings to put his hands on the wheel, but according to the NTSB, these warnings came more than 15 minutes before the crash.” This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. What they said here was, for all intents and purposes, a flat out lie. Clearly…

It’s feature maybe? After all after insane and ludicrous mode kamikaze kinda fits.

I don’t understand why people had faith in AP 2.0 in the first place, especially since Tesla boasted that it took them only 6 months to develop it. And unlike AP 1.0 the regulated ADAS features were not enabled (officially as in outside of AP mode) on it for the longest time some still aren’t.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#54

Post by debt » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

Maybestring wrote: post #25

MBCook wrote: post #3

“[Driver’s] hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash. Tesla has said that Huang received warnings to put his hands on the wheel, but according to the NTSB, these warnings came more than 15 minutes before the crash.” This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. What they said here was, for all intents and purposes, a flat out lie. Clearly…

>This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. I don't understand why they would issue any statement other than, 'condolences, we're committed to safety, we're working with the NTSB to understand what happened'

Because Musk views people as crustaceans rather than human beings.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#55

Post by Someone1234 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

ingenieroariel wrote: post #24

devy wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Add to that, the last bullet point from page 2 of the official preliminary report[1]: At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increased from 62 to 70.8 mph, with no precrash braking or evasive steering movement detected. That to me is a strong indicator that Tesla's AP2 can not recognize a crashed attenuator, probably one of the strongest argument that…

This happens with regular adaptive cruise control on my Ford, when the cruise control set point is a lot higher than the current speed: the car accelerates after another car clears the lane and ram into things.

To contrast that anecdote, this doesn't happen with my Subaru with EyeSight. It uses parallax for 3D distance, if it detects a solid object ahead (be it vehicle, wall, barrier, or anything else) it will apply the emergency braking system (which may still result in a collision in the given circumstances but at much less fatal speeds).

The industry has many highly effective AEB systems, and has for years now. I cannot comment on Ford's because I don't know specifically about its problems.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#56

Post by finnthehuman » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

27182818284 wrote: post #13

The NTSB report confirms that. The crash attenuator—an accordion-like barrier that's supposed to cushion a vehicle when it crashes into the lane separator—had been damaged the previous week when a Toyota Prius crashed at the same location. The resulting damage made the attenuator ineffective and likely contributed to Huang's death. kinda sounds like maybe that part of the road isn't well designed or marked too.

A crash attenuator is a “nice to have” kind of feature. The minimum drivable roadway conditions can be, and often are, worse. We have higher standards for human drivers and it wouldn’t be news except for the autopilot.

Unless you want to ramp up caltrans to the point where it can fix non-essential parts of any and every roadway within hours of degredeation, it’s entirely impractical to expect them to be in perfect shape.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#57

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

After this incident and Tesla's response to it, I hope Tesla is sued and or fined into bankruptcy. Tesla is normalizing releasing not fully tested software to do safety-critical things, and literally killing people as a result. A message needs to be sent that this is unacceptable. In addition, their first response is a PR driven response that sought to blame to driver, and violated NTSB procedures. Safety is probably the most important thing to get right with these types of software and Tesla is nonchalantly sacrificing safety for marketing.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#58

Post by Someone1234 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #37

martin_bech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A counter argument that HUMAN DRIVERS are unsafe an fatal (let alone missing common sense and alertness). I 100% get your point, but my counterpoint, is that this is what we are going to see, in the future. Autonomous systems that by and large are way safer, than human drivers, but when they fail, the might do so, in circumstances where are human would not. Humans are good at some things, computers/ai/sensor suites a…

It is not clear that this particular autonomous driving system is better than a human driver.

And they play contradictory arguments using statistics "You don't have enough data to say it is dangerous!" while at the same time using the exact same statistics to argue that it is safer.

Either the statistics are half-baked or they're ready to draw conclusions with, you cannot have it both ways.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#59

Post by ckastner » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:17 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #42

NTSB: • At 8 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was following a lead vehicle and was traveling about 65 mph. • At 7 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla began a left steering movement while following a lead vehicle. • At 4 seconds prior to the crash, the Tesla was no longer following a lead vehicle. • At 3 seconds prior to the crash and up to the time of impact with the crash attenuator, the Tesla’s speed increas…

> This is the Tesla self-crashing car in action. Remember how it works. It visually recognizes rear ends of cars using a BW camera

I'm sure Tesla's engineers are qualified and it is certainly easy to second-guess them, but it is beyond me why they would even consider a BW camera in a context where warning colors (red signs, red cones, black and yellow stripes, etc.) are an essential element of the domain.

Re: NTSB: Autopilot steered Tesla car toward traffic barrier before deadly crash

#60

Post by agumonkey » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

MBCook wrote: post #3

“[Driver’s] hands were not detected on the steering wheel for the final six seconds prior to the crash. Tesla has said that Huang received warnings to put his hands on the wheel, but according to the NTSB, these warnings came more than 15 minutes before the crash.” This kind of stuff is why I’ve lost all faith in Tesla’s public statements. What they said here was, for all intents and purposes, a flat out lie. Clearly…

Musk has lost touch with reality if that's true..