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The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

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Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#281

Post by bhtru »

varjag wrote: post #272
Alterlife wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in India, and I can't help but feel insulted by this comment. Is there some kind of magic that makes engineers better when you take them out of India? There are some great developers here and plenty of crappy ones. And some of the worst developers I've worked with are Americans in America. ---- edit: I'll also add here that a many of the best developers I've worked with are American as well.

It is common to see Chinese names in some top tier science publications coming from America. At the same time, the bulk of science coming from mainland China is junk. So there well can be some magic at work. That, or selection.

If you can make it in the West you’ll leave your homeland typically. Tech is a sector that often can is merit based so it’s not difficult for foreign engineers to prove their worth and make the migration (relative to other service sector industries).

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#282

Post by kamaal »

devdas wrote: post #215
mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I observed when interviewing candidates for offshore positions was that people wanting more senior technical roles wasn't as strong as here in US. Granted this is anecdotal from interviewing maybe a couple dozen people out of whatever giant number of IT people in India. Just wondering if there is a cultural/societal push towards the management/boss level that diminishes value towards senior technical roles?

Money and power. Technical tracks don't really have much of a growth path in India, and especially in service firms, where the work itself doesn't really add much to your technical skillsets. Often the challenging/interesting bits in those scenarios are done by the US/European/Australian office, and only the implementation details are left to the Indian workers. That isn't conducive to being valued as an engineer. Ma…

Things have changed significantly and management purges are very common. And once you lose your job, finding a new one is hard, because to be frank you have no real skills apart from Microsoft Excel.

In many cases there have been people who lost jobs and didn't get a new job in over an year and had to move tech roles eventually. Some people had to change career tracks(get into marketing etc) permanently. So there is now a dedicated incentive to stay in the technical track.

Also in the current age, moving to a non-tech job is the long term equivalent of choosing a non-STEM career.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#283

Post by pbhjpbhj »

carlmr wrote: post #227
v_lisivka wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... in Christianity.

How so? Southern Europe is very relaxed in this sense culturally, and it's the most religiously Christian part of Europe at the same time. While atheist northern and central Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland) place a lot of emphasis on reliability. Sure you could argue that these nations are culturally Christian, but Christian culture still doesn't imply an emphasis on reliability. At most I migh…

Lying is specifically spoken against in the New Testament [paraphrasing: "let your yes be yes"; and "be beyond reproach"]. AIUI lying is allowed in Hinduism [the means justify the end] and in Islam [if it furthers Islam, it can't be wrong].

However, just because it's lauded in Christian writings and by Christians doesn't mean that Christians are any better in this respect than others, "we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory" afterall.

I imagine Buddhism to have a similar focus on truth?

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#284

Post by osrec »

ksk wrote: post #270
osrec wrote: post #129

IT miracle? More like IT sham. The quality of engineers in India is sketchy at best in my experience. Lack of understanding and innovation is rife across the board, but they seem to be great at selling their service. This may be because of the "yes" culture other comments have mentioned, but I would guess it's got a lot to do with a massively undercut price. It is, however, a false economy, because you often end up i…

Everytime I hear this I fail to see how it makes any sense. Either (1) All the firms hiring them are idiots and are unable to judge competency and continue falling for the "scam" every year, year after year on every project, with every company. (2) Your propositions are incorrect. They do have good engineers and they do end up doing good work.

They pick their targets very carefully. They will generally aim to get contractual sign off from business-focused people that know little about IT. They'll promise them the world at a fraction of the cost of competitors, and the business guys will present a healthy set of cost savings to their board. Once the customer is fully locked in, they will fail to deliver on a few of those promises. Then the excuses start. Then the timelines slip. Then, after many months of this charade, they might get fired. Then the customer might try another company. Then they go back to on-shoring their dev team.

Basically, it's not (1) or (2), but instead (3): that these guys are master scammers, liars and confidence tricksters. They exaggerate without committing to anything and lull their customers into a false sense of security. They are THE slipperiest eels in the industry.

If you don't believe me, I encourage you to give them a try just once - it will probably convince you.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#285

Post by bhtru »

srameshc wrote: post #254
osrec wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate to say it (as I am Indian), but it's a cultural thing. Basically, it's all about solving the problem by any means necessary, regardless of cost to the environment, cost to others, future problems etc. This is changing somewhat, but rather slowly.

It certainly depends on who you are dealing with. It definitely isn't a cultural thing. Ethics and ethical people exist everywhere. Had it not been there wouldn't be these many tech companies or businesses in India.

Consequence of demographics? Competition in India and China are arguably fiercer because of scale. If you’re not pulling out all the stops then you might be handicapping yourself relative to your peers.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#286

Post by to_bpr »

ethbro wrote: post #175
cpmouter wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>people from different parts of the world see things and respond differently than you'd expect and then get frustrated when the outcome is different than expected I get your point, but the fact that Indians say "yes" to everything (i.e. the fact they lie constantly) is not something that managers should get used to, it's something Indians have to correct.

Saying "yes" to everything, as has been explained above, has more to do with different cultural definitions of "yes" than lying. You ask me if it's going to rain, and I say yes, because I know with certainty it will rain tomorrow. Is it fair for you to call me a liar because you carried around an umbrella today?

>more to do with different cultural definitions of "yes" than lying.

I call poe.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#287

Post by poulsbohemian »

mattbrewsbytes wrote: post #133
niklasd wrote: post #50

I studied in India 2012 for a short time. I met incredible smart and hardworking people. However, one thing that I found quite unnerving was that there is a tendency to always anwser yes if asked if one knows how to do something, even if thats not true. Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. I can't count how many times I asked a rickshaw driver if he knew a certain place and he ans…

One thing I observed when interviewing candidates for offshore positions was that people wanting more senior technical roles wasn't as strong as here in US. Granted this is anecdotal from interviewing maybe a couple dozen people out of whatever giant number of IT people in India. Just wondering if there is a cultural/societal push towards the management/boss level that diminishes value towards senior technical roles?

Do you really find this to be just an Indian / non-US thing? From the time I was twenty (twenty years ago) it was pretty apparent that there was a lot more money over on the management side of things. At forty, the number of 20 and 30-somethings all snorting and fighting for promotions makes it pretty clear to me this is not a generational or cultural thing. Everybody wants more money, responsibility, title, power, etc. In a country of a billion people where a tech job represents a path out of poverty, it isn't surprising to me that you'd see the same behaviors.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#289

Post by flarg »

osrec wrote: post #198
bhouston wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was dealing with a smart IT engineer from India and then I found out that he has sold me code for peanuts he had created for another client (and was already owned exclusively by that client, which was a major venture backed company), and then I caught him selling the code I paid him well to create exclusively to a third client also for peanuts. Basically no regard at all for IP rights and the contracts he signed, j…

I hate to say it (as I am Indian), but it's a cultural thing. Basically, it's all about solving the problem by any means necessary, regardless of cost to the environment, cost to others, future problems etc. This is changing somewhat, but rather slowly.

Wow, that actually explains a lot of problems I have with the way my Indian team work. Thanks for the heads up!

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#290

Post by mkovji »

niklasd wrote: post #50

I studied in India 2012 for a short time. I met incredible smart and hardworking people. However, one thing that I found quite unnerving was that there is a tendency to always anwser yes if asked if one knows how to do something, even if thats not true. Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. I can't count how many times I asked a rickshaw driver if he knew a certain place and he ans…

I have never seen any rickshaw driver say yes to some place that he doesn't know. Either he will say he is not sure and he will stop at a place and inquire for u with people nearby and then take you to the place or most of them have google maps and can look it up if you cant by urself. Since they are pretty hyperlocal even without maps they can simply by talking to couple folks here and there figure out the right destination or by looking around a little as they may have seen the same place a while back.

You seem to have internet access, so clearly without asking him to choose the route you could have seen the maps and given the route yourself which many smart people do these days to save time and if you are not able to identify a route and are at the mercy of the rickshaw guy then may be you should have some patience and be thankful to the driver for figuring out the route and taking you to the destination.

Or may be they can be smart and ask for fees if they have to find the route and if u set the route then separate fees for that.

I guess one needs to learn the art of comparison since comparing random stuff will yield pointless opinions of no value.

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