Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Web Framework Benchmarks

techempower.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 116 posts

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#61

Post by mkirklions »

lllr_finger wrote: post #31
onion2k wrote: post #15

These are fun benchmarks, but every single framework in the top 250 or so is more than fast enough for most apps. Even the slowest in the list manages 366/requests per second, which is probably enough to prove an idea before optimizing for speed. We're approaching the point where speed is essentially a solved problem unless you're at Google-scale.

Is it? Concurrent connection handling at scale is a major problem, and plenty of Fortune 1000 companies would jump at the chance to have even 5% fewer instances deployed. 366 rps in a test scenario doesn't scratch the surface of what I need, and I'm not doing anything I'd consider crazy scale. When you need to support hundreds of thousands of rps, small improvements can be very noticeable.

I'll tell you what.

When I'm a fortune 10,000 company, we can afford to rewrite the web app.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#62

Post by tomchristie »

dorfsmay wrote: post #30

It looks like the bottleneck here is the database driver (or possibly ORM when used). The plaintext test shows a very different picture: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=#section=dat... PS: As a side note, I do not like golang, my focus has been on python and now rust, but I am very impressed by both the plaintext and the DB test!

I think TechEmpower are doing a great job on these generally, but the plaintext benchmark is problematic because they allow pipelining. (Which isn’t enabled in browsers, isn’t typically used in request libraries and tools, and has generally been sidelined) Frameworks which are tailored with that in place can get a big boost in the ratings there.

If you want a measure of plain request/response I’d use the JSON benchmarks as the baseline.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#63

Post by ekr »

onion2k wrote: post #15

These are fun benchmarks, but every single framework in the top 250 or so is more than fast enough for most apps. Even the slowest in the list manages 366/requests per second, which is probably enough to prove an idea before optimizing for speed. We're approaching the point where speed is essentially a solved problem unless you're at Google-scale.

Until your app gets on HN/Slashdot/Reddit etc and experiences the hug of death.

Jokes aside, I do agree that from a developer's standpoint, the optimal way to act (optimising for business success) is as you say, ignore performance at first. But from an engineering/craftsmanship standpoint, it should really bother you to have an inefficient system.

Just think of all that extra CPU load, and all the CO2, all the coal burnt to sustain it ...

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#64

Post by onion2k »

mkirklions wrote: post #58
smoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Plus almost all cases I run into performance issues with e.g. Python in general web development, that main problems were how the code was written, not what it was written in and being bottle-necked by the database. That said I disagree a bit with saying it is a a solved problem unless you are Google-scale. In developing countries if you are in a small company without big investors,…

Im somewhat traditional with my web, javascript and php. But are people really doing python and web development? I love python for my web crawlers, photoshop automation, and table formatting automation- But I never considered it a web contender. Any major sites running python? Whats the popular way people are doing it?

Any major sites running python?

YouTube is quite a popular one.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#65

Post by ddorian43 »

mkirklions wrote: post #61
lllr_finger wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it? Concurrent connection handling at scale is a major problem, and plenty of Fortune 1000 companies would jump at the chance to have even 5% fewer instances deployed. 366 rps in a test scenario doesn't scratch the surface of what I need, and I'm not doing anything I'd consider crazy scale. When you need to support hundreds of thousands of rps, small improvements can be very noticeable.

I'll tell you what. When I'm a fortune 10,000 company, we can afford to rewrite the web app.

But do they rewrite ? Twitter did. Facebook didn't.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#66

Post by conradfr »

mkirklions wrote: post #58
smoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Plus almost all cases I run into performance issues with e.g. Python in general web development, that main problems were how the code was written, not what it was written in and being bottle-necked by the database. That said I disagree a bit with saying it is a a solved problem unless you are Google-scale. In developing countries if you are in a small company without big investors,…

Im somewhat traditional with my web, javascript and php. But are people really doing python and web development? I love python for my web crawlers, photoshop automation, and table formatting automation- But I never considered it a web contender. Any major sites running python? Whats the popular way people are doing it?

Isn't Django huge? And there's Flask as well.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#67

Post by detaro »

mkirklions wrote: post #58
smoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Plus almost all cases I run into performance issues with e.g. Python in general web development, that main problems were how the code was written, not what it was written in and being bottle-necked by the database. That said I disagree a bit with saying it is a a solved problem unless you are Google-scale. In developing countries if you are in a small company without big investors,…

Im somewhat traditional with my web, javascript and php. But are people really doing python and web development? I love python for my web crawlers, photoshop automation, and table formatting automation- But I never considered it a web contender. Any major sites running python? Whats the popular way people are doing it?

Instagram uses Python/Django a lot

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#68

Post by bluejekyll »

steveklabnik wrote: post #24
Spartan-S63 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For Rust, I'm interested to see what the future holds once the community coalesces around an async IO interface. Additionally, when procedural macros stabilizes (for real), the possibilities for ergonomic frameworks in Rust become endless. Rocket has been really interesting to work with, but it only works on nightly since it relies on experimental codegen/procedural macro features. Once procedural macros stabilizes,…

Speaking of which, a few hours ago Futures were added to the standard library, so the next nightly will have them in. We're quite close to that standardization!

Just adding for clarity: this isn't async io, but the foundation trait for building promise/future combinators in Rust. Tokio, an async io library, is built around this trait.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#69

Post by tomchristie »

mkirklions wrote: post #58
smoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Plus almost all cases I run into performance issues with e.g. Python in general web development, that main problems were how the code was written, not what it was written in and being bottle-necked by the database. That said I disagree a bit with saying it is a a solved problem unless you are Google-scale. In developing countries if you are in a small company without big investors,…

Im somewhat traditional with my web, javascript and php. But are people really doing python and web development? I love python for my web crawlers, photoshop automation, and table formatting automation- But I never considered it a web contender. Any major sites running python? Whats the popular way people are doing it?

Hell yes - it's an incredibly productive language, and the Web frameworks for it (Flask & Django in particular) are really nicely mature.

For fast Web App development it's a superb language choice.

Not so good if you wanted to write a super-high-throughput proxy service, but asyncio & ASGI is starting to change things there too.

> Any major sites running python?

Instagram is probably the biggest headliner these days, but there's stacks of others.

Re: Web Framework Benchmarks

#70

Post by [deleted] »

mkirklions wrote: post #58
smoe wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall sentiment. Plus almost all cases I run into performance issues with e.g. Python in general web development, that main problems were how the code was written, not what it was written in and being bottle-necked by the database. That said I disagree a bit with saying it is a a solved problem unless you are Google-scale. In developing countries if you are in a small company without big investors,…

Im somewhat traditional with my web, javascript and php. But are people really doing python and web development? I love python for my web crawlers, photoshop automation, and table formatting automation- But I never considered it a web contender. Any major sites running python? Whats the popular way people are doing it?

[deleted]
Post reply on HN