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State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

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Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A chilling effect on running an ad service, maybe. Following the law is a cost of doing business.

A specific sales tax on newspapers is also cost of doing business. But it is unconstitutional. Making the law really complicated so that it's expensive to follow is the same thing. How can I make an online community and sell ads profitable (like some people I know that ran profitable forums) if I have to vet ads and follow laws of fifty states? The result of such laws being enforced is, these online communities cease…

This is the whole point of outsourcing your ads to a company like Google, since they do it at scale they are able to do the due diligence of making sure the ads follow the law. That's one of the things you are paying them for.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#192
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of ways. For one, an adversarial congress is a feature, not a bug. We've seen already that as congress has become more polarized, lobbyist dollars have moved from federal to state in droves. Limit the scope and power of the Interstate Commerce Clause. Most modern interpretations are based on Wickard v. Fillburn's "Well, if everybody did it, it might affect interstate commerce" interpretation, which I…

"There are a lot of ways. For one, an adversarial congress is a feature, not a bug. We've seen already that as congress has become more polarized, lobbyist dollars have moved from federal to state in droves." No, that is most certainly a bug. The rise of ALEC in power is in no way, shape, or form a "feature". "Disallow regulatory bodies from having effective power to make laws." They already do not have this power. T…

> has the same effect as saying that you don't want those things regulated at all

Not liking how something is done doesn't mean it doesn't need to be done.

I'd be a big fan of DACA, for example, or even more open borders, if that could be passed by Congress. I am not a fan of it having been executed though executive order, especially given that it's now become a game of political chicken.

> They already do not have this power

Regulations are legally binding to those that are regulated. Everyone rightly considers net neutrality to be a law, or at least, it was, until the regulatory agency in charge of it decided it wasn't. I'm saying this shouldn't be in the purview of agencies, because that puts it in the hand of the executive branch, which means that Trump has the power to make law, which is expressly not a function of the executive branch.

I'm happy for those agencies to exist. I'm happy for those agencies to be tasked with research, expert opinions, recommendations as to what the laws should be, and even doing the work to draft and submit bills to minimize the workload on Congress, which is their function. I'm not okay with them unilaterally passing regulations without the express (not tacit) consent of Congress. Those regulations deserve more than a public commentary period, they deserve open debate and floor votes with votes on the record for where our politicians stand.

> No, that is most certainly a bug.

Again, I disagree, and I can only assume you're referencing ALEC out of some preconceived notion that I'm not espousing. Regardless, you'll note that I don't go so far as to suggest that gridlock is a feature, but adversarial procedure is, as it means that the legislation that does get past is only that which is tenable to a broad enough faction of the electorate.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#193
post #181
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you noted, it's a complicated relationship [1], consequently the only place we'd be likely to see a reliable result is in aggregate. Correlation is not causation, but congressional campaigns in 2012 that outspent their opponent won 91% of the time [2]. One of the clearer links is to voter turnout. I've read it takes between $5-20 to reliably motivate a voter to vote. Sans this minimum level of funding, your suppor…

> Sans this minimum level of funding, your supporters don't go to the polls, and you don't win. Ah, of course, you have the minimum funding to get your message out, I do not doubt that for a minute. There's a minimum level beyond which you can not mount a successful campaign. But beyond that level, the link between dollars and votes becomes much less direct and obvious. > general consensus is that the difference in f…

Granted on your first two comments. But something not guaranteeing success doesn't mean it doesn't make it more likely.

As for advertising dollars, you could absolutely hide a public ad in 2016 by buying through Facebook, not declaring yourself, and targeting a subset of users.

And Citizens even gives you (not great, but some) legal cover if you're caught. "My ad was an artistic work sharing my own viewpoint." Done.

State / city level, but someone else tuned me into this still running, funny-but-not-funny story in Seattle, in which an reporter decided to walk up to Facebook and Google and ask for election transparency documents they were legally obligated to provide under a 1977 city law.

Tl;dr, they didn't keep relevant records, didn't have any idea about the law, and are still scrambling to be compliant.

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/12/04/25606100/were-as...

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to tell you, other than that the Public Disclosure Commission and the Fair Campaign Practices Act have been Washington state law since the early 1970s.

I don't know what to tell you either, but the authors of the First Amendment had some pretty strong ideas on the subject about 200 years before that. They didn't seem quite as ambivalent on the subject as most people here. I wonder why?

Is a law prohibiting me from secretly giving an elected official a briefcase full of one million dollars constitutional? If so, why is it not the same if there's a law that says I can't secretly provide $1,000,000 in services to the same elected official in the form of political advertising?

The authors of the U.S. Constitution had some pretty strong ideas on the idea of bribery; in fact, it's explicitly listed in Article 2, Section 4 as an impeachable offense. The public has a right to know when its politicians and government officials are receiving money (or goods and services) from outside entities.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, banning money would make campaign spending illegal for any reason.

So you’re fine with the government telling you it’s illegal to distribute a movie?

What do my feelings have to do with what the current law says?

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you’re fine with the government telling you it’s illegal to distribute a movie?

What do my feelings have to do with what the current law says?

Presumably, you’re telling me what you think the law ought to be. As far as the law is currently concerned, spending is protected as speech.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do my feelings have to do with what the current law says?

Presumably, you’re telling me what you think the law ought to be. As far as the law is currently concerned, spending is protected as speech.

I did mean "used to be", you're right. I was saying that pre Citizens United money was not banned, it was regulated. There is a huge difference.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#198
> The case likely will not result in significant monetary penalties for the companies in question; even if fines and damages totaled tens of millions it would be a drop in the bucket for the tech giants.

> But deliberately skirting laws governing political spending and public disclosure is rather a bad look for companies under especial scrutiny for systematic dishonesty — primarily Facebook.

So they'll lose face, but not the books ...

Seriously though, come on. I'm getting increasingly cynical about this. This is business as usual in the US. They're not going to self-regulate themselves a conscience.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter; every penny must be accounted for when it comes to political spending. Failure to account is literally the corruption which is rotting the foundation of our democracy. I'm personally applauding Washington for taking this bold move, as both Facebook and Google have Seattle-area offices which they will likely not want to close. Washington and Oregon tend to act alike, and both Facebook and Google have n…

Anonymous speech (for individuals) is also central to a functioning republic democracy.

> Anonymous speech (for individuals) is also central to a functioning republic democracy.

How about you worry about the low-hanging fruit first: the 50/50 problem.

You might as well NOT have a democracy if the outcome of elections is artificially/politically restricted to be as close to 50/50 as possible.

You know the saying, "democracy is not perfect but it's still better than all the alternatives"?

50/50 is a failure mode of democracy.

All of the ways that democracy is better than the alternatives fall apart unless you fix this first: It's the largest possible minority that is unhappy with the outcome (50%). And it's the easiest to corrupt and manipulate behind the scenes: Any corrupt influence can easily tip the scales one way or another, creating a huge incentive for having this alternate battle field that doesn't have much to do with the will of the people at all.

You can have your anonymous speech once you get your democracy back on track. Talk about throwing the horse before the bus. You can't dispose of a round baby when you have a square kitchen sink.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But relatedly, money being treated as speech is antithetical to a functioning republic democracy.

So how do you get your message out without spending money? Do you only consider it freedom of speech if no one has a chance of hearing you? Spending money is how people with novel ideas expose it to more people and can hope to compete against established ideas that don’t need to be marketed.

> So how do you get your message out without spending money?

You use the fact people who won't listen unless you spend money won't hear your message.

> Spending money is how people with novel ideas expose it to more people and can hope to compete against established ideas that don’t need to be marketed.

It's also how you mix and dilute your idea into an ocean of meritless crap that nobody would care about unless someone spent money to have the likes of Facebook and Google shout it at them.

It particularly cements the idea that the only way to get novel (usually you'd aim for "good") ideas heard is by paying money to Facebook, Google or that other big media conglomerate (where their money buys "nation-wide local" "news").

Problem is, people with the good novel ideas are usually not the parties with a lot of money (because both are statistically rare).

And that means that the parties with a lot of money will decide which people get heard at all. Regardless whether they have good ideas, novel ideas, or even remotely plausible ideas.

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