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The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

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Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#81

Post by plinkplonk »

chvid wrote: post #46

In my own observation the use of outsourcing to India (in terms of market share) has been declining for years. Either being replaced by work done here in Copenhagen or in countries nearer by - Poland in particular. As a practioner; I cannot say that I miss working with projects outsourced to India. I really hope that you guys learn a less bureaucratic and hierarical way of working and you as a country become more foc…

"I really hope that you guys learn a less bureaucratic and hierarical way of working"

These generalizations make as much sense as me telling a random American HN user "I really hope that you guys stop indulging your blood lust by invading other countries and killing millions of innocents to make profits for your munitions industry and you as a country become less bloodthirsty"

Most Americans are not killers, though the subset someone from an invaded country has encountered maybe. All Indians don't have a "bureaucratic and heirarchical" way of working, though the subset encountered by someone seeking cheap outsourcing may be.

If you try outsourcing dev to China you'll encounter the same 'bureaucratic and hierarchical' ways of working, but they have massive product companies that are on par with anything in America. So the reason why India doesn't yet have dominant software product companies lie elsewhere.

Meanwhile these 'hopes' that "you guys learn to be less bureaucratic" are just sneers and stereotyping in disguise.

As a stereotype "bureaucratic ways of working" can be applied to Germany (for example) or Japan, or Korea, and while I'm sure there are bureaucratic Germans, they seem to doing fine economically.

But,carry on. This is the internet.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#82

Post by kamaal »

StudentStuff wrote: post #59
throwawayqdhd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indians are fixated on certifications. My friends still can't believe that I make the kind of money I make without a CS degree (I studied literature). And when I tried to hire someone when I tried building an agency, the only thing candidates kept emphasizing was their degree and certificates, not their skills.

Wow, that sounds quite sad that they define their self-worth by some piece of paper given to them, and not by what they can accomplish with the skills they have gained. A degree does not make a competent employee from what I've experienced.

Yeah but even in US, this whole college education has become a thing in the current times.

Degrees have been used as a filter for many jobs internationally for a while now.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#83

Post by buvanshak »

around 10 years before, an IT professional was the hottest thing in the Indian marriage market (if I may use that term, which is common use around here.). There was no problem for one to find a bride if they are anywhere near IT. When you here that some girl is getting married, and ask what the groom is doing, 9 out of 10 times, it would be "Software Engineer in US". Now it is bank employees. No one needs IT professionals now...

That should tell you something in lines of answering this question...

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#84

Post by kamaal »

stealthmodeclan wrote: post #63

What people don't realize is that there are tons of American companies which have offices in Banglore and one in texas or california and nearly all employees are Indian except a few. Those companies are massively profitable but they come across as American. Indian CEOs (somtimes even CEO is American but not having complete control over the corporation) of those companies send American employees for delivering keynote…

>>Also the best Indian engineers end up working for big companies like FANG.

Most jobs are in those companies in Bangalore are in QA/SRE/SysAdmin area. If people throwing away coding work in services to these non-dev work in FANG companies I wouldn't consider them too smart.

Even the other product companies like NetApp largely make engineers work on some internal php tool.

Product companies pay well, but the average quality of work isn't necessarily better than services firms.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#85

Post by saiya-jin »

avip wrote: post #56
niklasd wrote: post #50

I studied in India 2012 for a short time. I met incredible smart and hardworking people. However, one thing that I found quite unnerving was that there is a tendency to always anwser yes if asked if one knows how to do something, even if thats not true. Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. I can't count how many times I asked a rickshaw driver if he knew a certain place and he ans…

This is ABC of travelling in India. Never ask "is this the train to Pune"? Ask where the train is going instead. The answer to Y/N question is always yes in India, and that can mean anything between "I don't speak English" and "NO".

it's part of the culture to be nice (to strangers) and NO is considered rude. brings a lot of funky and frustrating moments not only when travelling.

another is that strange indian head-shake that is so hard to reproduce - never figured it out completely, but it felt like when I eventually ask yes/no question and they say yes with that shake, it's actually more like no/don't know/maybe

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#86

Post by chris_wot »

kamaal wrote: post #80
niklasd wrote: post #50

I studied in India 2012 for a short time. I met incredible smart and hardworking people. However, one thing that I found quite unnerving was that there is a tendency to always anwser yes if asked if one knows how to do something, even if thats not true. Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. I can't count how many times I asked a rickshaw driver if he knew a certain place and he ans…

>>Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. In a country like India where opportunities are scarce, saying no in many cases can mean permanently losing the opportunity to do something big. Saying 'yes' and failing is a lot more better than saying 'no' and not trying at all. If I'm not wrong this isn't just limited to India. I think it was Richard Branson who said something to the order…

Yeah, and the problem with this is if you lie and get found out, you'll not get asked again in many Western companies.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#87

Post by mantas »

StudentStuff wrote: post #69
sho wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> silences creativity, encourages rote learning and focuses too much on numbers on report cards You can absolutely say that about the Chinese education system as well, and they seem to be doing OK. I agree it's a shame that creativity is undervalued, if not outright suppressed, by the education system, but at the same time I don't think entrepreneurial spirit arises from formal education in the first place.

Entrepreneurial spirit generally doesn't emerge from standard formal education, but not much is done to suppress it, and there are often extracurriculars to encourage young entrepreneurs. Rote memorization also only gets you so far, often you get tested on how you arrived at an answer, not just on the answer itself. Understanding the process is just as important as knowing it. Perhaps this is a bit like the schooling…

Fun part is, high school is/was the other way. USSR curriculum was full of stuff that 99% of students wouldn't ever use. There was little incentive to use anything in practice. You had to memorise, pass test and then you can forget it. This practice continues to this day in big parts of ex-Soviet sphere. I had plenty of teachers who took pride in saying that "stupid Americans learn this only in university!". Yet Americans I meet remember what they learned and know who to put it to use. Meanwhile I don't remember jack shit :D

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#88

Post by setr »

chris_wot wrote: post #86
kamaal wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. In a country like India where opportunities are scarce, saying no in many cases can mean permanently losing the opportunity to do something big. Saying 'yes' and failing is a lot more better than saying 'no' and not trying at all. If I'm not wrong this isn't just limited to India. I think it was Richard Branson who said something to the order…

Yeah, and the problem with this is if you lie and get found out, you'll not get asked again in many Western companies.

Well, if what he's saying is true.. then you'd lose the chance by saying no anyways. So getting caught lying is the same result as not lying.

It'd only be useful to be honest if you do have a skillset, and the company has a reasonable chance of reaching out to you fot the skillset in the (near?) future

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#89

Post by sidcool »

singingfish wrote: post #79
megaman22 wrote: post #14

I can only hope so, after near on a decade of dealing with TCS, HCL, Cap Gemini, Cognizant, and others. I tend to get drawn in because I'm working for an ISV that makes a product. The Indian third-parties get drawn in because the real customwr has outsourced a function to them. I now have to deal with the incompetent pm on the $outsourced side, instead of the competent, reasonable pm on the real customer. And eight l…

TCS: Total Catastrophe Services

They are the biggest IT services company with $100 billion market cap. They are bad at many things, but making money is not one of them.

Re: The end of India’s ‘IT miracle’?

#90

Post by kamaal »

chris_wot wrote: post #86
kamaal wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Sometimes a plain "I don't know" can be very helpful in achieving a goal. In a country like India where opportunities are scarce, saying no in many cases can mean permanently losing the opportunity to do something big. Saying 'yes' and failing is a lot more better than saying 'no' and not trying at all. If I'm not wrong this isn't just limited to India. I think it was Richard Branson who said something to the order…

Yeah, and the problem with this is if you lie and get found out, you'll not get asked again in many Western companies.

Based on how politicians and how many second chances CEOs and other rich people get in the US I think its the same in US too.

Its just that if you are working minimum wage, or you are a spoke in the gig economy it's different for you.

Based on my experience working in the US, my American friends weren't very different. Its just that when you have sufficient you tend to worry less about over optimizing for the rainy days.

US is a different country in so many ways. US citizens are lucky to be born in such a great country, which supports its citizens through social security. And later with food stamps should the need arise. There is also awesome infrastructure like freeways and cheap air fare to move around based on opportunities. The cities are so full of opportunity. You also get free public education(Something like that is quite expensive in India.). Every city I saw where I stayed or visited(Who Bay Area, Philadelphia and NY) had parks, playgrounds. Every city had a swimming pool. Roads were sparkling clean and people were so welcoming. Plus food in the US is cheaper than chicken feed. If you can cook, rice, veggies and lentils are just like walk in the park. Meat too, you can afford to eat twice or thrice in a week. In my 3 years stay, I only have good things to say about the US. The full story is impossible to write. But I just can't imagine how anyone born in US can ever complain about lack of opportunities or ability to make a good life.

When you live in heaven, you tend to worry a little less about putting food on the table.

India is different. You have none of this. And its on your shoulders. Ensure your hands work till you die, or you will die.

Saying no to opportunities is very very expensive in India.

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