Things I Regret About Node.js [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#291

Post by rmrfrmrf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:17 AM UTC

minitech wrote: post #179

dnomad wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Npm_(software)#Notable_breakag... , [2] https://www.csoonline.com/article/3214624/security/malicious... , [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16087024 And the list goes on and on IMO. What's disappointing is that these were lessons learned a long time ago and now they're being re-learned.

Sounds to me like the list has one item: “the npm registry once allowed users to delete packages”. [2] and [3] have nothing to do with immutability. None of them have to do with reinventing the wheel, either, unless you wanted Node to use Maven for package management?

Anyone who's acting like this wouldn't happen in Maven is lying. Just look at what happened when CodeHaus went out of business.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#292

Post by josho » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:18 AM UTC

pknopf wrote: post #274

jrochkind1 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a story that gets repeated lots of times in our world of open source software dev. 1. X is SO bloated and poorly engineered full of bad legacy decisions. 2. We can totally do better let's invent a new thing, Y! 3. Wow, Y is so clean and fast and understandable. 4. But it doesn't do this thing a bunch of people reasonably really need... let's add it. (repeat 3 and 4 a few hundred times) 5. Y is so bloa…

How do you break the loop?

I don't think the loop is necessarily bad, it shows progress.

Think about Java, it solved a class of problems that C was unable to address (e.g. unsafe memory, native threads). Thus enabling a new class of programs. But the new class of programs created opportunities for new platforms to solve with the benefit of a clean slate and fresh design having learned from past successes and failures.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#293

Post by hliyan » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:21 AM UTC

thosakwe wrote: post #21

This was one of the more interesting software talks I've listened to recently. I like that it was very real - there are serious, serious problems with Node.js, and the fact that even the creator acknowledges these problems caught my attention. I'm also a long-time user of Dart, so when he brought that up, and compared TypeScript to its shortcomings, I definitely agreed. That being said, even with the Deno project, I'…

Question: have you written any server side Dart? I'm sold on the client side with Flutter.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#294

Post by sidlls » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:24 AM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #264

jecxjo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This issue is not just a lack of learning from past failures, it's an active issue that is systemic to web development, especially node. Everyone wants reinvent the wheel rather than supporting a similar, already existing project. I don't know if it's that everyone wants to be the lead on something or if they all lack group skills, but there is no reason we need dozens of similar, partially functional libraries. I ca…

It’s because the average dev has less than 5 years of experience according to the StackOverlow survey, and web is the fastest growing field inside software engineering. A large majority of people you’re chiding for not learning from others, don’t even realize those other things exist.

Ignorance is curable, but requires the cooperation and desire of those who lack to achieve the cure. From my vantage the world of software development seems filled with mediocre individuals who all think of themselves as the Jon Galt of software.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#295

Post by hliyan » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:25 AM UTC

isoos wrote: post #197

darzu wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you characterize the positioning of Dart with respect to Go? Dart is for client-side, Go is for server-side? I'm also curious if you see having separate languages for these roles as desirable or just incidental.

Disclaimer: I've been working with Dart for 5+ years now, I'm running several small server-side Dart apps myself, and I also contribute to the Dart app that is behind pub.dartlang.org The Dart VM itself is great for server-side, however Google is focusing on the mobile and web tooling and support. While they do develop server-side packages e.g. for AppEngine-, gRPC-, or Memcache-support, connecting to databases like…

I've recently started taking Dart seriously. Could you point me toward a good community / community resources? The official documentation seems a bet sparse...

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#296

Post by sidlls » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:29 AM UTC

p2t2p wrote: post #235

bartread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

This why I love Java so much. Take a look at what Spring Boot does for me: - Routing is done in two lines of code: @Controller @RequestMapping("/myroute") - Cookie and body parsing - no need to write any code to do that, I just have method parameters and all of the data flies in. Whant a validation? Only one keyword on a method parameter - @Valid. Custom validators are supported as well. - Session management. It just…

No, Spring Boot is one of the best examples of the worst kind of terrible patterns in the land of Java development. The bloat in that framework is awful, and the gods help you if something goes wrong in the annotations-everywhere code for anything but the most trivial of applications.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#297

Post by yen223 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:30 AM UTC

royjacobs wrote: post #173

bartread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. It's a shame these tools keep being rewritten because there are definitely good ideas in all of them, but for some reason they can't seem to be unified.

Somewhere along the line, we as developers have abandoned the Unix philosophy, especially the oft-forgotten second part ("Write programs that do one thing, and one thing well; and write programs that work well together").

Without the ability to compose multiple small libraries to form the exact solution that we need, we had little choice but to rely on the One True Framework to solve every problem that we will have.

This means if the One True Framework doesn't serve the exact need you have (and it almost definitely won't, there's a combinatorial number of requirements out there), it's time for a rewrite!

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#298

Post by cutler » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:31 AM UTC

p2t2p wrote: post #235

bartread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

This why I love Java so much. Take a look at what Spring Boot does for me: - Routing is done in two lines of code: @Controller @RequestMapping("/myroute") - Cookie and body parsing - no need to write any code to do that, I just have method parameters and all of the data flies in. Whant a validation? Only one keyword on a method parameter - @Valid. Custom validators are supported as well. - Session management. It just…

Have you tried Luminus? It comes configured with Buddy for auth though the docs for both Luminus and Buddy could do with some work.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#299

Post by cutler » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:34 AM UTC

i_made_a_booboo wrote: post #290

p2t2p wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This why I love Java so much. Take a look at what Spring Boot does for me: - Routing is done in two lines of code: @Controller @RequestMapping("/myroute") - Cookie and body parsing - no need to write any code to do that, I just have method parameters and all of the data flies in. Whant a validation? Only one keyword on a method parameter - @Valid. Custom validators are supported as well. - Session management. It just…

I'm switching to Rails after doing years of Spring Boot apps. The bloat of Java is 3x to 5x.

Spring Boot 2 with Kotlin can be a lot less bloated, especially with the async Reactive Web option which uses Netty.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#300

Post by megaman22 » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:34 AM UTC

josho wrote: post #292

pknopf wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you break the loop?

I don't think the loop is necessarily bad, it shows progress. Think about Java, it solved a class of problems that C was unable to address (e.g. unsafe memory, native threads). Thus enabling a new class of programs. But the new class of programs created opportunities for new platforms to solve with the benefit of a clean slate and fresh design having learned from past successes and failures.

I'm increasingly sketical. Maybe we move ahead a few inches each cycle, but it's starting to look distressingly like each generation of programmers has to learn all the lessons that their greybeard predecessors learned the hard way. Then, when they acheived some level of enlightenment, the next batch of bright-eyed whippersnappers comes along to rinse and repeat.

There's a disturbingly low-level of historical knowledge passed along in programming. Some bits and pieces are encountered in a quality Computer Science curriculum, but usually in rarefied, theoretical form, and inevitably balkanized into drips and drabs as part of subject-oriented coursework.