Things I Regret About Node.js [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#281

Post by pknopf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:58 AM UTC

royjacobs wrote: post #173

bartread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. It's a shame these tools keep being rewritten because there are definitely good ideas in all of them, but for some reason they can't seem to be unified.

> usurped by something like Brunch

I've been out of Node for like 6 months, wth happened! I give up!!

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#282

Post by manigandham » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

lewisinc wrote: post #272

manigandham wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, arguably the .NET Framework almost did it and is still one of the most productive frameworks available, but .NET Core has definitely improved things substantially. It's fast, well-designed, and full-featured and I expect usage to pick up greatly.

Can I use F# with it? Because I would love to learn me some F# some day.

F# with .NET Core? Yes, it works fine.

There are some challenges coming up with design changes to the compiler and C# that might overlap what F# already has but it'll get sorted out.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#283

Post by pknopf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 1:59 AM UTC

panopticon wrote: post #225

royjacobs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. It's a shame these tools keep being rewritten because there are definitely good ideas in all of them, but for some reason they can't seem to be unified.

> It's interesting that you mention gulp and webpack when those tools too are now considered too complex and set to be usurped by something like Brunch. While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity and customizability (and probably more important for longevity, library buy-in). It doesn't seem like anything on the horizon is going to unseat it anytime soon... certainly no…

> While Webpack is a little dense, it appears to strike the right balance between complexity

I don't know, I thought the same thing about Browserify.

And now Parcel is here, gaining steam...

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#284

Post by rmrfrmrf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:01 AM UTC

royjacobs wrote: post #121

I think it's quite interesting to see that originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages" like Java, C# or even Python or Ruby. A lot of complexity was subsequently added in an ad-hoc way which has resulted in (for example) a package management system that's wildly out of control. It's very popular of course, so I'm definitely not arguing that metric. However, the stuff that wa…

Maven is still garbage and 100 times more bloated than npm. It literally has all the same issues npm has, only with less support.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#285

Post by VikingCoder » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:03 AM UTC

pknopf wrote: post #194

VikingCoder wrote: post #156

Why msg.proto? Why not json? This seems like an odd dependency to me, and it seems like it adds no value.

Performance.

That seems highly unlikely.

I'm going off of what I've seen myself, and what I've seen in the xi editor:

https://github.com/google/xi-editor

"The protocol for front-end / back-end communication, as well as between the back-end and plug-ins, is based on simple JSON messages. I considered binary formats, but the actual improvement in performance would be completely in the noise. Using JSON considerably lowers friction for developing plug-ins, as it’s available out of the box for most modern languages, and there are plenty of the libraries available for the other ones."

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#286

Post by iamleppert » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:04 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #128

iamleppert wrote: post #78

He talks about not to add in features you think would be “cute” because they are always a mistake.. Then a few minutes later says “I thought being able to specify URLs in import statements would be cute..” Uhh...Houston, we have a problem with this one.

I dunno, importing from a url seems really smart and practical to me. It divorces the run-time (Deno) from a package manager (like npm). I wonder how it handles dependencies though.

Is it synchronous? Does it follow redirects? What happens in a 404 situation? Does it obey cache headers? What happens when a timeout occurs or the resource isn’t code? What happens with recursive dependencies and other edge cases as a result of not knowing the dependency tree until runtime? What about error handling and recovering from these failures at runtime or compile time? Should all resources be secure? How does it work when you are developing on one of those dependencies? Do you have to run a local web server? How does versioning work? Where is the cache stored and is it content addressable? How to clear it? Is it global or per user?

I could go on but you get the idea. A package manager is not simple and requires A LOT of choices. The best one I’ve seen is old CPAN.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#287

Post by rmrfrmrf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:05 AM UTC

jonny_eh wrote: post #128

iamleppert wrote: post #78

He talks about not to add in features you think would be “cute” because they are always a mistake.. Then a few minutes later says “I thought being able to specify URLs in import statements would be cute..” Uhh...Houston, we have a problem with this one.

I dunno, importing from a url seems really smart and practical to me. It divorces the run-time (Deno) from a package manager (like npm). I wonder how it handles dependencies though.

The main problem is that URLs offer even fewer immutability guarantees than package management servers do, plus they're even easier to 1) break and 2) attack.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#288

Post by i_made_a_booboo » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:09 AM UTC

bartread wrote: post #169

royjacobs wrote: post #121

I think it's quite interesting to see that originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages" like Java, C# or even Python or Ruby. A lot of complexity was subsequently added in an ad-hoc way which has resulted in (for example) a package management system that's wildly out of control. It's very popular of course, so I'm definitely not arguing that metric. However, the stuff that wa…

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

Nevermind the additional complexity of integrating with payment gateways and handling complex authorization requirements and team invitations etc.

Even a 'simple' web app is a convoluted mess of shit if you are to run a real world production grade system. I'm so sick of all these 'hello world' toy examples.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#289

Post by rmrfrmrf » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:11 AM UTC

TBH I felt like a lot of this could have been resolved if he stayed involved with the community and opened issues with the relevant repos.

Seems pretty classless to rage quit the community, brag about how much better Go is, then mark your return at a JS conference by shitting on Node and hard-forking the server-side JS community.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#290

Post by i_made_a_booboo » Thu, Jun 07, 2018, 2:12 AM UTC

p2t2p wrote: post #235

bartread wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with "bloat-free" is it's a fine ideal until you try to solve any kind of reasonably complex problem, and honestly it starts to creep in even when you're solving something that isn't particularly complex. Here's a concrete example. Your classic node.js or express.js sample app is something fairly simple like a hello world, or an IM server. A more complex sample probably looks something like that v…

This why I love Java so much. Take a look at what Spring Boot does for me: - Routing is done in two lines of code: @Controller @RequestMapping("/myroute") - Cookie and body parsing - no need to write any code to do that, I just have method parameters and all of the data flies in. Whant a validation? Only one keyword on a method parameter - @Valid. Custom validators are supported as well. - Session management. It just…

I'm switching to Rails after doing years of Spring Boot apps. The bloat of Java is 3x to 5x.