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Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

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Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#261

Post by kenhwang »

tnolet wrote: post #118

Having worked with Maven, Gradle, Ruby Gems, Pip and the non-existing Go package management I must say I actually really like the Node / NPM combo. I guess artists are their own worst critics. edit: forgot Scala's SBT, admittedly a builder using Maven repo's but still an excellent example of how bad UX in this area can get.

Recently, when I use npm, it mostly just works. There's still the occasional node/npm version mix and match to get certain libraries to work and accidental sudo; the former might just be the poor quality of the ecosystem, and the latter is almost just user error.

I'd put it par with rubygems, ahead of pip, gradle, maven, a little bit behind mix, and far behind cargo. Not a bad spot to be by any means.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#262

Post by breatheoften »

Why would deno implement “download on first encounter” for its module system ...?

Would you ever want this vs an explicit “build” step that downloaded all the required resources ahead of time ...?

Does deno walk the program source and download everything that could be required upfront or do the resource loading on demand as it’s executed ...?

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#263

Post by spraak »

royjacobs wrote: post #121

I think it's quite interesting to see that originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages" like Java, C# or even Python or Ruby. A lot of complexity was subsequently added in an ad-hoc way which has resulted in (for example) a package management system that's wildly out of control. It's very popular of course, so I'm definitely not arguing that metric. However, the stuff that wa…

I missed that in the presentation. Are you referencing something else when you say that

> originally node.js was presented as a bloat-free alternative to "enterprise languages"

?

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#264

Post by Swizec »

jecxjo wrote: post #234
dnomad wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watching the Javascript poorly reinvent the wheel has been very disappointing. Very simple mistakes like immutable, never changing build releases that Java developers understood 15 years ago are become recent front page news in this community. Ironically, even though all the code is open-source pre-existing knowledge does not get leveraged in the open source world. There's a kind of market failure at work here it see…

This issue is not just a lack of learning from past failures, it's an active issue that is systemic to web development, especially node. Everyone wants reinvent the wheel rather than supporting a similar, already existing project. I don't know if it's that everyone wants to be the lead on something or if they all lack group skills, but there is no reason we need dozens of similar, partially functional libraries. I ca…

It’s because the average dev has less than 5 years of experience according to the StackOverlow survey, and web is the fastest growing field inside software engineering.

A large majority of people you’re chiding for not learning from others, don’t even realize those other things exist.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#265

Post by thecrazyone »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #152
sametmax wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My head can't wrap itself around: import { test } from " https://unpkg.com/deno_testing@0.0.5/testing.ts" There is so many issues with that I don't even no where to begin.

I'm not a huge NodeJS developer, but have done enough (and other development) to think this is not a good solution to the packaging/dependency problem. My experience with npm issues were usually that some dependency had its own build process. There are so many inconsistencies in how JS libraries are packaged and downloaded. I think scripting in general leaves the whole dependency thing out in the wind. Now. If we cou…

Well, packages are testable. You can test the api of a package today. Having people write said tests is the tough part.

Did you mean to say something else?

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#266

Post by pspeter3 »

manigandham wrote: post #228
jrochkind1 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a story that gets repeated lots of times in our world of open source software dev. 1. X is SO bloated and poorly engineered full of bad legacy decisions. 2. We can totally do better let's invent a new thing, Y! 3. Wow, Y is so clean and fast and understandable. 4. But it doesn't do this thing a bunch of people reasonably really need... let's add it. (repeat 3 and 4 a few hundred times) 5. Y is so bloa…

Yes, because the loop never solves the original problem. It's about organization and bloat, not pure speed and leanness. Rebuild from scratch but also recreate all the existing functionality in a much better standard library and finally the chain can be broken. But nobody wants to do that.

I think Go does this for me for the most part

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#267

Post by donatj »

tnolet wrote: post #118

Having worked with Maven, Gradle, Ruby Gems, Pip and the non-existing Go package management I must say I actually really like the Node / NPM combo. I guess artists are their own worst critics. edit: forgot Scala's SBT, admittedly a builder using Maven repo's but still an excellent example of how bad UX in this area can get.

- https://research.swtch.com/vgo - https://github.com/golang/dep

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#268

Post by jecxjo »

Swizec wrote: post #264
jecxjo wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This issue is not just a lack of learning from past failures, it's an active issue that is systemic to web development, especially node. Everyone wants reinvent the wheel rather than supporting a similar, already existing project. I don't know if it's that everyone wants to be the lead on something or if they all lack group skills, but there is no reason we need dozens of similar, partially functional libraries. I ca…

It’s because the average dev has less than 5 years of experience according to the StackOverlow survey, and web is the fastest growing field inside software engineering. A large majority of people you’re chiding for not learning from others, don’t even realize those other things exist.

But it's not even independent green developers, it's everyone. Chai, mocha, jasmine, jest, should, expect, lab...omg do we really need another unit testing library? Sure they are all slightly different but there is no reason they all couldn't be condensed down to one or two libraries. Shall we list all the reactive UI frameworks? Or routing frameworks? Everyone is at fault here.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#269

Post by d0m »

davidw wrote: post #69

Some kind soul want to do a summary? I got through "uh hey, uh so" and remembered why I don't do videos.

Try "right-arrow" (you can keep it pressed). Sounds stupid but it used to be an issue for me and now I can watch lengthy videos in a minute, a bit like how one can go through a book quickly by flipping pages and going back to the interesting bits.

Re: Things I Regret About Node.js [video]

#270

Post by hshehehjdjdjd »

pspeter3 wrote: post #266
manigandham wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because the loop never solves the original problem. It's about organization and bloat, not pure speed and leanness. Rebuild from scratch but also recreate all the existing functionality in a much better standard library and finally the chain can be broken. But nobody wants to do that.

I think Go does this for me for the most part

Go has been out for almost a decade and they’re still working on the package management story.
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