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State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

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Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your response assumes that without the federal government doing something, nobody will do it, but that misses the fact that we have 50 state governments and DC perfectly capable of regulating themselves. Past that, local elections already matter more in one's day to day life than federal elections, and those votes will have even more value as the role of the states grow.

It doesn't assume that - it assumes that if it's bad when the federal government gets involved with something, it's equally bad when the state government gets involved. For instance, this thread is about a state pursuing large tech companies on what can be described as free speech violations. But I've never seen anyone argue that it's okay for a state government to ban free speech, but it's not okay for the federal g…

> it assumes that if it's bad when the federal government gets involved with something, it's equally bad when the state government gets involved

Which in my opinion is a broadly false assumption, and ignores the very point of a federal republic, which is federalism. People in different states have different cultures, different norms, different geographies, different natural resources, different pastimes, different porn habits, different cuisines, etc.

State legislatures are closer to their voting populace than federal legislatures, and thus, people's interests can be more directly reflected by voting more locally.

I agree that a state trampling on your rights is functionally no better than if a federal government does so, but you have more recourse against a state government doing so, more opportunities for remedy, and more ways in which to steer the ship right where those violations are regular.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#152
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And apparently the definition of "coordinate" is quite flexible. E.g.: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/here-are-the-secret-... In practice, I'm not sure sufficiently rich people face any practical limits in influencing elections.

They don’t because of the first amendment. A person is allowed to influence the election as much as they can. There is no difference between HBO broadcasting Bill Maher into millions of home and Bill Maher paying for YouTube ads. You can’t even differentiate between people and corporations. Because otherwise the government could tell the New York Times to stop writing articles against trump. After all they are a for…

This is a very specific and recent interpretation of the first amendment. Your theory that no nuance is possible does not match how the constitution is applied in general, or even how that amendment is dealt with specifically, both historically and currently. For example, defamation is still illegal, even if you do it to influence an election. Campaign finance limits have been weakened, but still exist and are enforced. It also doesn't wipe out other speech crimes, like fraud, conspiracy, and obstruction of justice, even if they're part of a campaign.

It's not a particularly tough spot except from the perspective of very strong textual literalism.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#153
post #97
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. Placing a flat limit of $1000 per person per tax year, and only allowing actual people to contribute should not have any negative effects on free speech.

> a flat limit of $1000 per person per tax year Limit on what? On speaking about politics? On buying ads? On paying people to write about politics? On hiring consultants to develop advertising strategies? On speaking about anything government cares about? So if NYT spends $1000 per subscriber on politicial writer's salaries in March, it has to be shut down until the next January because it's over the political speech…

Hi, let me introduce you to this new thing called the Internet, which lets everybody publish their speech for free. You should try it sometime.

(And clearly they mean a limit on political contributions, which is something that many countries do successfully. Ours used to be one of them. I hope you're not as ignorant on the topic as your hysterical straw man suggests, but if you are I'd suggest a little reading. E.g. this Brookings working group has many perspectives: https://web.archive.org/web/20010406114712/https://www.brook... .)

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#154
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what? They’re still responsible for complying with the law.

Following the law isn't black and white. I'm sure each of us as individuals broke the several times today without even knowing it.

Yea, but each of us aren't multibillion dollar corporations significantly influencing governments.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#155
post #99
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you equate money spent on political advertising with votes (which I believe has strong empirical support), then failure to regulate inevitably devolves democracy into plutocracy. Assuming that's not desired, the question then becomes how best to balance free speech with equalizing commercial political speech.

> which I believe has strong empirical support What is that strong support? We routinely see very well-moneyed campaigns lose. In the very last election in the US the losing candidate outspent the winning one - if you look at Super-PAC spending (which is the one considered most "dark and dangerous", right?) the losing campaign had gathered 3x from the winning one ($189.4M against $59.3M). Somehow turned out having mo…

As you noted, it's a complicated relationship [1], consequently the only place we'd be likely to see a reliable result is in aggregate.

Correlation is not causation, but congressional campaigns in 2012 that outspent their opponent won 91% of the time [2].

One of the clearer links is to voter turnout. I've read it takes between $5-20 to reliably motivate a voter to vote. Sans this minimum level of funding, your supporters don't go to the polls, and you don't win.

As for the 2016 election you note, general consensus is that the difference in funding was largely erased by media time (itself one of the primary reasons to spend money in the first place!), where Trump's approach held a clear (and cheap) advantage [3].

More broadly speaking, post-Citizens, we're in an era where we actually don't know how much "money with intent of political influence" is being spent. It's legally debatable enough that a group can now say, "This is my personal or commercial speech, so I'm not registering with the FEC."

[1] http://freakonomics.com/2012/01/17/how-much-does-campaign-sp...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2014/04/04/th...

[3] https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2017/04/election-2016-trump...

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#156

> At least some of the many payments making up these results are not properly documented, and from the looks of it, this could amount to willful negligence. If a company is operating in a state and taking millions for political ads, it really can’t be unaware of that state’s disclosure laws. Seems to be overstating the case just a tad. Less than a million, in total, for Google at least. That's two or three engineer-y…

>It looks like instead the requests of the two gentlemen cited in the suit simply didn't make it to the right people.

I read the legal complaint against Google. If hand delivering a letter to the physical office is not good enough then fire the receptionist and lock the doors.

I'm sick of pretending like not knowing the right way to contact a company that hide from the public is the fault of the person attempting to contact the company.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#157
post #111

With gdpr, I came to realize that (for better or worse) the internet is transitioning from a place outside of the law to a place subject to the union of all laws.

The Internet transitioned from a place that felt very 'underground' in the 80s/90s to this advertiser/data driven retain-every-piece-of-user-data world. It has moved from something that was sort of decentralized to something that is very centralized, particularly in the hands of large companies, so now we need laws to constrain those companies.

While that may be true in theory, in practice your last sentence should say "constrain all companies".

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't assume that - it assumes that if it's bad when the federal government gets involved with something, it's equally bad when the state government gets involved. For instance, this thread is about a state pursuing large tech companies on what can be described as free speech violations. But I've never seen anyone argue that it's okay for a state government to ban free speech, but it's not okay for the federal g…

> it assumes that if it's bad when the federal government gets involved with something, it's equally bad when the state government gets involved Which in my opinion is a broadly false assumption, and ignores the very point of a federal republic, which is federalism. People in different states have different cultures, different norms, different geographies, different natural resources, different pastimes, different po…

How would you see greater recourse and more opportunity for remedy at the state level?

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you haven't lobbied? I encourage you to head to your closest legislative body (city hall, county council, state legislature), just to see what they're doing. (In person.) If something's on the agenda that piques your interest, sign-in to speak. Then keep doing it. There's got to be something under discussion that warms your belly. Once you find it: Call any of your reps (city, county, state, federal) and ask for a…

That’s all great, but if your ideas are anathema to what the major political forces want, then it’s not going to work. Sometimes you have to take your case to the people.

Dude. I feel like you need a bro hug more than advice. Don't despair.

My friends work on and have milestone achievements on marijuana legalization, marriage equality, campaign financing, DREAM ACT, family leave, increasing the minimum wage, etc, etc.

The biggest impact any of us can have is on the local level. The cliche is that states are incubators of democracy. Well, cities are the incubators of states.

While the federal government is AWOL, it's left a huge vacuum, which many states, counties, cities have chosen to fill.

The opportunities have never been more insurmountable (h/t Yogi Bera).

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#160

> At least some of the many payments making up these results are not properly documented, and from the looks of it, this could amount to willful negligence. If a company is operating in a state and taking millions for political ads, it really can’t be unaware of that state’s disclosure laws. Seems to be overstating the case just a tad. Less than a million, in total, for Google at least. That's two or three engineer-y…

> Less than a million, in total, for Google at least. That's two or three engineer-years.

Your estimates are not based on average salary anywhere that I'm familiar with.

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