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Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

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51–60 of 67 posts

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#51
post #13
post #2

So the newest Cortex will roughly match the 2016 Apple A10 CPU? No wonder so many android tablets are painfully slow...

You need to compare few things other than raw performance. Latest Apple chips are humongous for ARM based SoCs. This is in big part due to them having bigger caches than some server CPUs.

I was curious about this claim so I looked some numbers up. The latest A11 chip has 8MiB of L2 cache. I could only find a small handful of xeon models with 6MiB of cache while almost all of them contain equal or greater amounts of L2 cache. The chip does not have L3 cache so there is nothing to compare here. The A10 has total package cache less than 8MiB (split into L2 and L3). So I'm not sure this is a good explanation of the performance or size difference.

From what I can tell, while cache is still a large portion of the area, GPU die space is quite large now. The CPU performance seems to be due to expanded execution ports leading to more dispatched instructions per cycle, which is generally a good idea as long as one can keep the execution ports fed with a good amount of speculation in other stages of the pipeline.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#52
post #46
post #3

I wanna see a realistic benchmark that compares it against intel's x86 i"X" (6th, 7th, 8th gen) to decide if it can be called a laptop class processor in first place... BTW, it's interesting to see how good apple is in designing their custom Arm processors.

I would expect initial benchmarks to be bad. Remember the fixes Cloudflare had to apply to ffmpeg (adding NEON-specific intrinsics to code that already had x86 ones). That's probably fairly common in most software we run (because most of us run it on x86 machines). ARM-optimized software will eventually be written.

I wonder how much can actually be optimized due the reduced number of instructions found in risc processors. Is is the case if they need some special instructions they can still fit them in an arm processor ?

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#53
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end result is that people who prefer Android devices are still stuck paying iPhone money for a phone that has much, much lower single threaded performance.

At what point does any user stop to complain about their single threaded performance on their handheld device? Quite literally the two devices are incomparable as Apple is a service with proprietary devices. Their selling point is all _their_ software will run similarly anywhere on any device. Android is free of that cycle, thankfully.

I think their selling point is the whole package - iPhone + apps + iCloud (photos mainly) that will be supported in person in store. Though Android is free of such a tightly integrated package of hardware software, services, and supportmaybe not so thankfully....

Worth pointing out you can pretty much replace all the default apps with 3rd party apps, it would definitely be an improvement if you could set them as the default apps though.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got the right general idea already :) > I understand that ARM sells core designs, and that each company assembles them / designs them in the way suits their performance needs, and then gets them manufactured? Most consumers of ARM cores are simply interested in integrating them into a larger design; usually an SoC. Not so much in tweaking performance, though certainly they'll choose whether to prioritize perfo…

> Place and route has to solve an NP-Complete optimization to figure out where, on the physical die, all the transistors are going to go, given a set of constraints (transistors need to be close enough to their neighbors to achieve the performance requirements). I've always wondered at the efficiency of the Place and Route step of chip design - I've dabbled in PCB design at the hobbyist level, and any autorouter that…

> I've dabbled in PCB design at the hobbyist level, and any autorouter that I've come across has been complete garbage compared to a person manually solving the puzzle of placing parts and routing a PCB.

Autorouters are often considered garbage because they are typically run underconstrainted. That is, you didn't give enough constraints to the solver so its output, naturally, ends up as garbage.

The reason for that is multifold, but one of the biggest issues is that people often feel the time it would take to codify their constraints would exceed the time it would take to simply route the board themselves.

Place and Route algorithms have a different history. A) It's nigh on impossible to manually place and route modern chip designs. At least, the entire designs. (Sometimes sections or repeatable blocks will be manually laid out.). There's just too much. So it was necessary for P&R to be "not garbage". B) Chip design has always lived at the bleeding edge, thus requiring a rigorous understanding of the physical constraints that designs can work within. C) The stakes for chip design are higher. A failed board costs maybe a thousand bucks max to re-spin and a couple days (expedited). A failed chip costs millions upon millions and months of time. So, again, chip designers have been forced to have a near complete understanding of physical constraints. They had to build rule checkers to ensure that, 99.99% of the time, if the rules pass, their design will work.

So it's no wonder that P&R has had a distinct advantage over autorouters.

That said, another big advantage P&R has is that ... nobody looks at the layout (where all the transistors and wires ended up). You don't really care _how_ P&R solved the problem. You just care that it did, and that all the rules pass. If they did, and you got the performance/power/whatever you wanted, great. Who cares how it did it.

Where as autorouters, you've always got some layout engineering looking it over going "eehhhh, I remember this one time 10 years ago I routed a design like that and we got rejected at the emissions lab." Which, of course, only occurs because nobody bothered to tell the autorouter to optimize for RF radiation.

> How automated is this step really?

Almost completely. Sometimes you do help P&R along a little. There are implicit boundaries defined by the "modules" that you break your code up into. The P&R uses that knowledge to know that certain chunks of knowledge are grouped together. But designers often also manually place "chunks" of logic, when P&R is having a bit of a struggle on its own. That is to say, they tell P&R "put all this logic in this sector of the die". It's not manually routing, but it's enough to give P&R a break so it can focus its time elsewhere.

And repeated logic, like say 32-bit adders, RAM cells, etc, are pseudo-manually routed. P&R is given a suggested routing, but is allowed to tweak as needed.

EDIT: I will caveat all of this by saying any engineer who has dared look at the output of P&R will tell you P&R is "garbage". They do _crazy_ things. But most of the time, nobody cares, and when you do care, those rough placing constraints I talked about solve most practical problems.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#55

I'm not a hardware knowledgable guy, but would love to read/hear an intro about what chip design is all about (at a lay person's level I guess). I understand that ARM sells core designs, and that each company assembles them / designs them in the way suits their performance needs, and then gets them manufactured? But what does that really mean? What is the "user" doing? Are they arranging them like kids' Lego blocks o…

You've got the right general idea already :) > I understand that ARM sells core designs, and that each company assembles them / designs them in the way suits their performance needs, and then gets them manufactured? Most consumers of ARM cores are simply interested in integrating them into a larger design; usually an SoC. Not so much in tweaking performance, though certainly they'll choose whether to prioritize perfo…

What a lovely comment. Thank you for taking the time to write that all out.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#56
post #22
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking online about this company. Apple has acquired pa-semi for $278m in 2008 which translated in having the fasted arm processor by a wide margin a decade later, definitely paid out very well.

It took a lot less than a decade, they were already ahead when the A7 launched in 2013. So they took the lead in 5 years, and now have held it for another 5.

[deleted]

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#57
post #52
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect initial benchmarks to be bad. Remember the fixes Cloudflare had to apply to ffmpeg (adding NEON-specific intrinsics to code that already had x86 ones). That's probably fairly common in most software we run (because most of us run it on x86 machines). ARM-optimized software will eventually be written.

I wonder how much can actually be optimized due the reduced number of instructions found in risc processors. Is is the case if they need some special instructions they can still fit them in an arm processor ?

Everything SIMD that relies on any flavor of SSE or AVX will need to be ported to NEON (or its variable width new thing I forgot the name). Also, many ARM SoCs have asymmetric cores - a couple i7-like ones and a couple Atom-like ones. If I see 8 cores and start 8 threads that need to sync up at the end, my process will be perceived to run at Atom speeds. At the same time, if I wake up my big powerful core to listen to me typing on a terminal, my battery will suffer - unless I have something that's "hard", I should use the small, less hungry cores.

Software will need to take individual core speed in consideration when scheduling threads if it wants to achieve best possible power consumption at a certain performance level. Today, our software assumes all cores are equal. I'm not even sure these asymmetric cores have the same SIMD widths, for instance.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#58
post #51
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need to compare few things other than raw performance. Latest Apple chips are humongous for ARM based SoCs. This is in big part due to them having bigger caches than some server CPUs.

I was curious about this claim so I looked some numbers up. The latest A11 chip has 8MiB of L2 cache. I could only find a small handful of xeon models with 6MiB of cache while almost all of them contain equal or greater amounts of L2 cache. The chip does not have L3 cache so there is nothing to compare here. The A10 has total package cache less than 8MiB (split into L2 and L3). So I'm not sure this is a good explanat…

You also have to add SRAM on the GPU, decoders, and etc that adds to 13mb

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got the right general idea already :) > I understand that ARM sells core designs, and that each company assembles them / designs them in the way suits their performance needs, and then gets them manufactured? Most consumers of ARM cores are simply interested in integrating them into a larger design; usually an SoC. Not so much in tweaking performance, though certainly they'll choose whether to prioritize perfo…

Addendum: I suppose one way to think about this is to imagine old-school computers. I'm talking about the ones built from TTL logic chips; pre-6502/8080/etc. ARM is basically selling a virtual "board" with their CPU implemented using those logic chips. You, as the designer, can then connect their board up to other boards to have other functionality you want. A graphics board, a sound board, etc. The difference betwee…

Thanks so much for your informative and extensive replies! Much appreciated.

Re: Arm unveils 7nm Cortex-A76 CPU

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got the right general idea already :) > I understand that ARM sells core designs, and that each company assembles them / designs them in the way suits their performance needs, and then gets them manufactured? Most consumers of ARM cores are simply interested in integrating them into a larger design; usually an SoC. Not so much in tweaking performance, though certainly they'll choose whether to prioritize perfo…

Addendum: I suppose one way to think about this is to imagine old-school computers. I'm talking about the ones built from TTL logic chips; pre-6502/8080/etc. ARM is basically selling a virtual "board" with their CPU implemented using those logic chips. You, as the designer, can then connect their board up to other boards to have other functionality you want. A graphics board, a sound board, etc. The difference betwee…

Oh a brief followup question if you have interest -- How does one know when it's time to design your own chip? Versus take something off the shelf? At what level of company or product maturity is this realization even likely to be discovered?
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