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State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

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Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#91
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens United made and sold a documentary. There's no difference between that and HBO, spending limits are ultimately an attack on independent media and new media.

If you equate money spent on political advertising with votes (which I believe has strong empirical support), then failure to regulate inevitably devolves democracy into plutocracy. Assuming that's not desired, the question then becomes how best to balance free speech with equalizing commercial political speech.

(replying here since i can't reply to another comment - even though it already has a child)

> If the problem is that money can buy unlimited federal power, then you can limit the federal powers available for purchase without curtailing the freedom of the citizenry to engage in political speech as they choose.

That's completely not a solution.

But if Jo Squillionaire wants people to have the freedom to contract their labor to a certain company indefinitely in the future, then Jo Squillionaire has the capacity to advertise enough to buy back that right. But I don't necessarily have the capacity to contradict him.

A more effective solution would simply be to limit a person's capacity to accrue wealth. If there's proper income and/or wealth taxes in place people can be rich enough without being too rich.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it? - it’s barely outrageous - doesn’t seem to be about the first amendment - nor is it much of a violation

Something about "making no law abridging the freedom of the press." What other forms of speech would you, personally, like to see require government registration?

[deleted]

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#93
Wait, so if I want to publish a political ad online, which can be seen in Washington, I have to publish my address so any wacko can come and threaten myself and my family? I guess somehow it makes sense to people in Washington but certainly doesn't make sense to me.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#94
post #7

How many of the funders breached federal or state mandated limits on spending? I ask, because in the "brexit" circumstances it becomes clear the "leave" campaign eggregiously breached the declared public advertising spending limits through use of indirect/third-party funding channels who did placement in social media.

This isn't strictly illegal in the U.S. due to the Citizens United decision. Because of free speech blah blah blah I can spend an unlimited amount of money for a cause or canidate as long as I don't coordinate with that campaign.

Wait, so any citizen of the US can speak about political matters without any limits? And collude in it with other US citizens, potentially forming political organizations, NGOs, parties, and so on, and there's no limit on what they can speak about and how much money they can spend on convincing others to join them? That's a real nightmare!

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous speech (for individuals) is also central to a functioning republic democracy.

But relatedly, money being treated as speech is antithetical to a functioning republic democracy.

Money is not speech, and courts do not treat it as such. The most famous recent case, Citizens United didn't even flirt with the notion. (Despite much commentary to the contrary, apparently from people who didn't read the decision.)

Money does, however, enable speech, and restrictions on things which enable us to exercise fundamental rights is at least potentially a restriction on that right. That's the framework the Supreme Court used.

If you disagree, consider: Pick a right you quite like (gun ownership, abortion, speech, voting in an election, etc.). Clearly a law banning that activity outright, or severely restricting it ("you can't obtain an abortion", "you can only speak in favour of Trump", "you can't own a handgun", "you can only vote for the Democratic candidate") would be absurdly illegal. It follows that a law preventing you from spending money on that right ("you cannot pay for an abortion", "you cannot spend money on criticising Trump", "you can't purchase a handgun", "you can't spend money travelling to the polls unless voting for a Democrat") would also be illegal (if severe enough at least).

The scope in which government can make your ability to exercise fundamental rights more difficult is non-zero, but sharply proscribed (witness the long string of court decisions striking down red state abortion laws).

It's possible that the restriction at stake in Citizens United was so minor that it should have been permissible, but I take your argument to be that it was anything but minor. In which case, the restriction probably was unconstitutional. In the US system, speech is protected, and (like it or not!) political speech is the most protected form. Any law which meaningfully impacts any real person's ability to speak about politics is presumptively unconstitutional, by design. And the more meaningful the restriction, the more that applies.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anonymous speech (for individuals) is also central to a functioning republic democracy.

But relatedly, money being treated as speech is antithetical to a functioning republic democracy.

Citizens United discussions are a bit of a flamewar trap.

So if you're reading this, instead of down voting everyone on the other side or yelling about democracy in a reply, I'd just urge you to leave this site of random pseudo anonymous opinions, and maybe go somewhere else to learn a little about the case instead.

Radiolab's More Perfect does a great job of providing the backstory:

https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/citizens-united/

The oral arguments on Oyez have even more back and forth if you like, including I think even a few arguments and turns Radiolab missed.

I think you can leave that episode with either opinion about the finding. But either way you'll leave that episode smarter, which seems like a hackery sort of value.

Quick, before it all devolves further, fly you fools!

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#97
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t because of the first amendment. A person is allowed to influence the election as much as they can. There is no difference between HBO broadcasting Bill Maher into millions of home and Bill Maher paying for YouTube ads. You can’t even differentiate between people and corporations. Because otherwise the government could tell the New York Times to stop writing articles against trump. After all they are a for…

I completely disagree. Placing a flat limit of $1000 per person per tax year, and only allowing actual people to contribute should not have any negative effects on free speech.

> a flat limit of $1000 per person per tax year

Limit on what? On speaking about politics? On buying ads? On paying people to write about politics? On hiring consultants to develop advertising strategies? On speaking about anything government cares about? So if NYT spends $1000 per subscriber on politicial writer's salaries in March, it has to be shut down until the next January because it's over the political speech limit?

This of course sounds insane, because you can't put limit on spending money on speech without putting limits on actual speech. Because it's one and the same - publishing speech costs money, and money is the way to get speech published.

Fortunately, US still has freedom of speech, which is not measured in dollar limits.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#98
> At least some of the many payments making up these results are not properly documented, and from the looks of it, this could amount to willful negligence. If a company is operating in a state and taking millions for political ads, it really can’t be unaware of that state’s disclosure laws.

Seems to be overstating the case just a tad. Less than a million, in total, for Google at least. That's two or three engineer-years. It's substantially below the noise threshold.

I mean, Google should comply, yes. No question. But I don't really see any evidence that the failure to comply was willful. It looks like instead the requests of the two gentlemen cited in the suit simply didn't make it to the right people.

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#99
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens United made and sold a documentary. There's no difference between that and HBO, spending limits are ultimately an attack on independent media and new media.

If you equate money spent on political advertising with votes (which I believe has strong empirical support), then failure to regulate inevitably devolves democracy into plutocracy. Assuming that's not desired, the question then becomes how best to balance free speech with equalizing commercial political speech.

> which I believe has strong empirical support

What is that strong support? We routinely see very well-moneyed campaigns lose. In the very last election in the US the losing candidate outspent the winning one - if you look at Super-PAC spending (which is the one considered most "dark and dangerous", right?) the losing campaign had gathered 3x from the winning one ($189.4M against $59.3M). Somehow turned out having money is not enough. So I'd like to see what you call "strong empirical support".

Re: State of Washington sues Facebook and Google over failure to disclose spending

#100
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And according to the Supreme Court, many times over, the very purpose of the first amendment is to protect speech, and the most important form of speech to protect is political speech. Yes, there are downsides to unfettered speech, but freedom means having to let other people do things I don't like, and in exchange, I can do things they don't like. If the problem is that money can buy unlimited federal power, then yo…

> If the problem is that money can buy unlimited federal power, then you can limit the federal powers available for purchase without curtailing the freedom of the citizenry to engage in political speech as they choose. This is an excellent point.

Actually it isn't.

(a) The money has an outsized power to argue for an increase in available powers as I said upthread since I couldn't reply here.

(b) Democracies seem to work better and more stably when votes make a difference. If there's a full house of people wanting to shift in a certain direction the democratic principle is that the shift in that direction should happen. Otherwise democracy becomes a sham and its institutions shed trust. This creates precisely the atmosphere for antidemocratic or unliberal people to gain power. If you can vote for someone who supports your views but they can't implement them while they're operating in the system, why not vote for someone who supports your views and is willing to ignore the system to get it. And what will all checks and balances do in that environment!

If you like liberal government (in the traditional sense not the partisan sense), the most effective way to get it is to encourage liberal preferences in the electorate.

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