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Hello, GitHub

natfriedman.github.io

631–640 of 671 posts

Re: Hello, GitHub

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MS employee here: Long before the acquisition, we've been hosting important stuff in private GitHub repositories. Including having strategic discussions in those private repositories. We've also done a lot of that stuff in public too. Some might say a bit too much, given that we've had things leaked and/or misinterpreted w.r.t product direction in the past. I still agree with your point, but I believe more of this so…

> Long before the acquisition, we've been hosting important stuff in private GitHub repositories. Including having strategic discussions in those private repositories. Wow! I am very surprised by that. Is that an officially allowed policy? Or is it something that is "don't ask for permission, ask for forgiveness"?

Yes, it's absolutely an allowed policy. When we made .NET (Core) open source, we meant it. We still use email like any other org, but whenever we're working on our product we try to keep discussions on GitHub. It's also made collaboration with other teams far, far easier.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#632
post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely true. Microsoft puts (almost? Yet to find anything that isn't) all our code on VSTS which is accessible remotely, without VPN. I've checked in a (very very minor docs) fix to the Windows code base from my Android phone over LTE.

The only thing a VPN would do in this case is hiding that you're even accessing VSTS and providing modest proteaction against MitM attacks. You still have to use 2FA to log in, and the code you access is still logged.

VPN puts you on corpnet. And yes, I'm well familiar with our various account protection techniques (I work on the token server) - I was calling out that some companies trust their systems enough to make it remotely accessible, not saying it's a bad thing that I could be productive on the bus ride home.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Says the guy working for Linkedin. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17232483

LOL, you caught me, so cunning. Almost like I didn't say "before becoming an employee" right in my comment.

Ah, I did not relate that use of the word employee to becoming an employee of linkedin. Fair enough. Still, unadulterated hype by employers of companies with questionable ethics doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in discussions like these.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, you caught me, so cunning. Almost like I didn't say "before becoming an employee" right in my comment.

Ah, I did not relate that use of the word employee to becoming an employee of linkedin. Fair enough. Still, unadulterated hype by employers of companies with questionable ethics doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in discussions like these.

If that's the reality you like to live in more power to you, but mine is not hype, is my personal experience, stuff I lived through. Can't you accept that someone's experience might be different than yours?

Re: Hello, GitHub

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for Linkedin, MS is very respectful of our independence (sometimes in puzzling ways). It's kinda painful and annoying to read about all the negativity and tinfoil hat theories but that's the price to pay (I guess) and we'll see what happens. Microsoft has every interest in playing nice with the community and everything to lose from trying to do anything hostile to it.

> It's kinda painful and annoying to read about all the negativity I can imagine. You may wish to switch employers. > and tinfoil hat theories Are you saying that all complaints about MS conduct are delusional? > Microsoft has every interest in playing nice with the community and everything to lose from trying to do anything hostile to it. So let's have a candid discussion about telemetry. Or sneaky Windows 10 upgrad…

I'm saying most complaints I'm reading here have no basis in reality. Microsoft felt negatively in the past about OSS when it felt an existential threat from it. In the past few years the work of many inside Microsoft helped shape a new vision of OSS inside the company and it's pretty evident to anyone that's not trying to be blind that things have changed.

So yeah, let's talk about telemetry, or Windows updates, or patent threats. Every business makes decisions, some good, some bad. We might not agree 100% on which ones are which.

We're in the business of creating software and not running charities, we all do what's in our best interest trying not to be too evil, there's plenty of good folks and also plenty of assholes in every big co out there and all the negativity doesn't help the good ones pushing for the right outcomes.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#636
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it was a coup, but it's definitely not just a coincidence either that the new CEO who takes over at the same time as the Microsoft acquisition is a Microsoft employee. If Microsoft weren't acquiring GitHub, would they still pick Nat to be their new CEO?

I'm trying, but I can't see your point. Company A doesn't have CEO. Company A gets acquired by Company B. Company B thinks it's a good idea for a company to have a CEO, and so provides an employee to take that role in Company A. It's not complex, not a coincidence, and absolutely not something that we should be worried about. It's striking that out of all of this, the new CEO is what you're worried about.

it's not a problem, it's fully what i would expect to happen in an acquisition. and like i said, Nat seems like probably a good choice for CEO. but it doesn't square with a commitment to keep GitHub independent from microsoft. if microsoft is appointing a CEO for GitHub, that's not independence by any normal or sane definition of the word "independent".

"Microsoft made a good decision when they appointed a new CEO for GitHub" and "microsoft is keeping GitHub independent" are not compatible statements.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, I did not relate that use of the word employee to becoming an employee of linkedin. Fair enough. Still, unadulterated hype by employers of companies with questionable ethics doesn't hold a whole lot of weight in discussions like these.

If that's the reality you like to live in more power to you, but mine is not hype, is my personal experience, stuff I lived through. Can't you accept that someone's experience might be different than yours?

> That's, like, your opinion man.

:)

See, that cuts both ways.

My experience with linkedin: Countless emails suggesting that someone has 'added me on linkedin' when I never made an account, they clearly bought a list and kept on spamming it over and over again.

A website that leaks data like a sieve, one failed attempt after another to create a sense of community, utterly meaningless endorsements and competency system.

On and on. I really wonder what the draw of linked in is, I would never use it as a decision in whether or not to hire someone and I think it is one of the worst possible experiences on the web.

And that's before we get into it now being a Microsoft subsidiary, another major strike against it.

The sooner linkedin goes away the better, it's been ripe for disruption for many years.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#638
post #555

I read a lot of comments claiming that MS "used to be a bad actor" but, of course, they now "care about developers and open source". Developers, they say, are the very lifeblood of the new Microsoft. "We respect developers." I work on Windows 10. It is normal for me to have many programs open while I do development along with dozens of web pages containing information I need. Days worth of "state" are stacked on the…

Settings -> Windows Update -> Restart Options: Off

Yes. I know. The point is their attitude. Someone, somewhere decided that the default reboot policy would be good for Microsoft. Apparently the effect on developers was not worth considering. They didn't seem to care that you would wake up some morning and find that 4 days worth of work disappeared and that your virtual machines won't boot because they changed your hardware settings.

Ubuntu pops up a window telling me that updates are available. Apple does the same thing. You don't have to be destructive "by default".

You can be certain that Microsoft will "just know" that a Microsoft login "adds value", that cloud-hosting Github "adds value", that SHA-256 is better than SHA-1 for git hashes, that a Microsoft GIT GUI is better than a command line, and that a Microsoft protocol is better than a git:// protocol. Slowly, but surely, the Microsoft attitude will make github into a Microsoft "product".

If Microsoft REALLY wanted to help developers they would fix the money problem.

Open source needs a way to get grants so people can attend conferences, pay for servers, pay for bandwidth, etc. (not salaries). But grants require accounting. Accounting requires accountants. Somebody, somewhere has to "manage the money", keep the books, and clear the receipts. Otherwise grant organizations and the federal government won't give grants.

So if Microsoft REALLY wanted to help open source developers they would hire a few people to manage grant applications and grant money management. Then we could apply for a grant, the money would be held by this non-profit.

We're programmers. If you can think of it, we can do it. But it takes someone who has the motivation and the time. Motivation is easy to find but time is not. Because Time is Money (as I'm sure you've heard). So the real issue is open source funding.

I've spent the last 18 years trying to get Axiom funded.

I tried the NSF. They will not fund Axiom because there is a "competing commercial product" (aka Mathematica).

I tried the Air Force (AFOSR). They cannot give grants to open source work because it requires financial tracking. Somebody has to managed the funds and the receipts. When I was at City College I did get a grant but they have a Provost (who took 55% for "support").

In order to handle accounting open source needs an "accounting office" with professional, certified accountants. I approached several companies (e.g. IBM, TI, etc.) with the idea of "donating a certified accountant or two" to an organization that would "manage open source grants" with services like funds management, receipt clearance, taxes, etc. That way an open source project could accept grant money. So far, nobody wants to donate people. I think such an office could completely change the whole open source funding issue.

I've tried setting up donations for Axiom. The idea was not to pay people to work on Axiom, just to support things like setting up a conference or paying to attend a conference. I was the only donor.

Open source is not free. I estimate that I spent about $3000 per year on things like travel to attend a conference and paying for hosting services. I now have the Axiom server under my desk on a $1200 dollar computer. In order to ensure Axiom runs everywhere I have to buy computers like the Apple (used to be a non-Intel processor), the PowerPC, a Windows machine, a Linux machine, etc. It all adds up to a lot of money.... not to mention the cost of books to keep up. Oh, yeah, and my time is written off as "free".

Re: Hello, GitHub

#639
post #555

I read a lot of comments claiming that MS "used to be a bad actor" but, of course, they now "care about developers and open source". Developers, they say, are the very lifeblood of the new Microsoft. "We respect developers." I work on Windows 10. It is normal for me to have many programs open while I do development along with dozens of web pages containing information I need. Days worth of "state" are stacked on the…

Settings -> Windows Update -> Restart Options: Off

Oh, and that option is only available on the "professional" version of Windows. We poor open source developers use the "non-professional" version that comes with the machine and THAT won't let you turn updates off.

So again, Microsoft is a corporation dedicated to making money. My time is only worthwhile if Microsoft can make money. So, naturally, in order to keep them from destroying my work I have to BUT an "professional" version.

"Nice place you got here, be a shame if anything happened to it."

The belief that Microsoft will help open source is simply naive.

Re: Hello, GitHub

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's kinda painful and annoying to read about all the negativity I can imagine. You may wish to switch employers. > and tinfoil hat theories Are you saying that all complaints about MS conduct are delusional? > Microsoft has every interest in playing nice with the community and everything to lose from trying to do anything hostile to it. So let's have a candid discussion about telemetry. Or sneaky Windows 10 upgrad…

I'm saying most complaints I'm reading here have no basis in reality. Microsoft felt negatively in the past about OSS when it felt an existential threat from it. In the past few years the work of many inside Microsoft helped shape a new vision of OSS inside the company and it's pretty evident to anyone that's not trying to be blind that things have changed. So yeah, let's talk about telemetry, or Windows updates, or…

Hey, thanks for replying!

I'm sympathetic to your point about large organizations having a mix of employees with different ethical standards.

In this particular case, as CEO Nadella is fully responsible for allowing the various nasty practices I enumerated above. (I tried to only list those which happened under his leadership.)

This is why I'm not persuaded about Microsoft's general trustworthiness by either of the following:

(a) Outsiders referring to Nadella's leadership of MS, or

(b) Nadella himself suggesting that people judge MS by its recent behavior.

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