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Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

reuters.com

11–20 of 88 posts

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#11
post #8
post #5

I’m not sure why this is news. I was interviewed for a position almost 10 years ago to develop software that categorized satellite imagery using heuristics, object detection, and classification. I assumed that similar projects had been going on for decades before. Much of the ‘AI’ research has been directly (or indirectly) funded by DoD, 3-letter agencies, NATO, and many other countries since the field’s infancy.

Propaganda to counteract the negative press about AI for defense/Project Maven, perhaps.

So propaganda to counter propaganda?

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#12
> The Pentagon is in a race against China and Russia to infuse more AI into its war machine ...

Much of the focus is on the U.S., China, and Russia, but I wonder who else is doing it?

Several years ago, a leading thinker on the application of modern IT to the military noted that it could represent an historic change: Throughout history, military power depended mostly on the quantity of two resources, wealth and population. But AI is much less strongly dependent on those things: You don't need lots of people; the robots and computers do much of the fighting. And wealth only helps so much: For AI, much of the war-fighting asset is software, which of course is free to produce after development, not expensive hardware. As we know well, spending more on software development doesn't always yield a better outcome. What's the benefit from spending $100 billion on development rather than $1 billion or even $10 million? For a lot of software, not much. (Hardware scale does help machine learning, but is there an upper limit or diminishing returns?)

Small countries might have an enormous opportunity. Could Singapore or Israel take the lead in AI and become major military powers? Could Saudi Arabia or Iran afford to develop AI as good as the U.S., China, or Russia? What about private companies or individuals? I suspect it depends not on quantity of developers, but on quantity of 10x developers and on who first discovers the superior technology and, more importantly, its application. Remember that in WWII, German tanks were inferior to many of their enemies, but the Germans figured out how to use tanks more effectively and seized an enormous advantage before their enemies could catch up.

EDIT: A couple clarifications and added the potential of private organizations

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#13
post #9
post #7

Detecting launch prep might be useful but it's ultimately just too easy to conceal a launch site to be the complete solution. It doesn't really help with a sneak attack from a major power and US missile defense isn't even good enough yet to reliably stop a NK attack. What the world really needs is to ensure mutually assured destruction is remains in effect. The world cannot afford to let the Russian or Chinese dictat…

Frankly, I think the country that one should be the most concerned about pulling off a first strike is the USA, not China or Russia...

The US has had the opportunity to take over the world multiple times and did not avail itself. Dictatorships are much riskier because of how centralized power is. But the genius of MAD is that it doesn't rely on trust.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#14
post #7

Detecting launch prep might be useful but it's ultimately just too easy to conceal a launch site to be the complete solution. It doesn't really help with a sneak attack from a major power and US missile defense isn't even good enough yet to reliably stop a NK attack. What the world really needs is to ensure mutually assured destruction is remains in effect. The world cannot afford to let the Russian or Chinese dictat…

> The US nuclear triad is way out of date and potentially vulnerable to a first strike. How are nuclear submarines vulnerable to a first strike?

There's just a handful of Ohio class subs and all of them should have been replaced by more modern and stealthier designs by now. It's conceivable that an enemy could locate most of them and hit them with nuclear torpedos or similar.

And even if most of the active subs survived it might not be sufficient to ensure MAD because they don't carry all that many SLBMs.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#15
> If the research is successful, such computer systems would be able to think for themselves

At what point will journalists stop writing this. We may very well have general AI at some point in the future, but I really doubt it's going to be in our lifetimes.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#16
post #15

> If the research is successful, such computer systems would be able to think for themselves At what point will journalists stop writing this. We may very well have general AI at some point in the future, but I really doubt it's going to be in our lifetimes.

It makes me bristle every time I read it. Advanced statistical computing != thinking! People love to conflate number crunching with intuition and all of the other things that are impossible for computers to do, so I expect it to continue.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#17

> The Pentagon is in a race against China and Russia to infuse more AI into its war machine ... Much of the focus is on the U.S., China, and Russia, but I wonder who else is doing it? Several years ago, a leading thinker on the application of modern IT to the military noted that it could represent an historic change: Throughout history, military power depended mostly on the quantity of two resources, wealth and popul…

I think this is a pretty insightful an accurate point. I'd like to add the following:

'Secret' software is very hard to keep secret: once your enemy has a semi-intact drone/AI then they'll have upgraded their own fleet within months (if yours was indeed superior).

I agree that it seems possible that a country with less wealth might outperform a country or group with more wealth. However, it's likely that the wealthier nation is better able to steal the technology and catch-up than the reverse scenario. A wealthier group has more budget for monetary bribes, and can pursue more parallel reverse-engineering attempts than the less wealthy group.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#18

> The Pentagon is in a race against China and Russia to infuse more AI into its war machine ... Much of the focus is on the U.S., China, and Russia, but I wonder who else is doing it? Several years ago, a leading thinker on the application of modern IT to the military noted that it could represent an historic change: Throughout history, military power depended mostly on the quantity of two resources, wealth and popul…

I disagree with both assertions. Unless any major breakthroughs in AI come along, you need a lot of people to create light, sweet crude data. China has multiples of the U.S. population, and is an expansive surveillance state gathering up every bit the internet has to offer, in contrast to the increasingly privacy-sensitive West. Given current trends in deep learning, those two factors alone give China an enormous advantage over the U.S.

Likewise, arguing that AI/software can supplant wealth in warfare is laughable. An example could be 9/11. The total cost to Al-Qaeda was a rounding error compared to the trillions spent in Afghanistan (and later, Iraq). And I have read anecdotes of U.S. Marines in Iraq recalling how insurgents managed to waste millions (if not billions) by firing one rocket at a Marine base then fleeing, all while the entire base has to shut down operations to dig in and defend, even if the lone attacker is long gone by the time anybody’s in position. And yet neither Al-Qaeda or ISIS or even the United States itself has managed to fully and definitely declare peace and go home without a new insurgency rising up in their wake.

In short, a power with little relative wealth or population - even with sophisticated software and AI - could never be any more than an expensive nuisance to the larger powers.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#19
post #8
post #5

I’m not sure why this is news. I was interviewed for a position almost 10 years ago to develop software that categorized satellite imagery using heuristics, object detection, and classification. I assumed that similar projects had been going on for decades before. Much of the ‘AI’ research has been directly (or indirectly) funded by DoD, 3-letter agencies, NATO, and many other countries since the field’s infancy.

Propaganda to counteract the negative press about AI for defense/Project Maven, perhaps.

It is interesting that a new HN account posted this, and it was almost instantly upvoted by a dozen people.

Re: Deep in the Pentagon, a secret AI program to find hidden nuclear missiles

#20
post #7

Detecting launch prep might be useful but it's ultimately just too easy to conceal a launch site to be the complete solution. It doesn't really help with a sneak attack from a major power and US missile defense isn't even good enough yet to reliably stop a NK attack. What the world really needs is to ensure mutually assured destruction is remains in effect. The world cannot afford to let the Russian or Chinese dictat…

you are misinformed.
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