Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#151

Post by vinceguidry » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

kinsomo wrote: post #99

vinceguidry wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. But this? Asking me to take personal responsibility with no legal recourse? This is the line they can't ask me to cross. If this is fake news, fi…

> Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. They're not. They restrict access to the service manuals behind a ridiculously expensive subscription that's only provided in states where it's…

I'm fine with that, just don't ask me to take personal liability for your mistakes. That's the line this crosses. I expect society to eventually fix the repair issue and if it doesn't, I'm not too worried about getting priced out of the repair market after my warranty expires.

This affects me personally.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#152

Post by delbel » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:13 PM UTC

adrianN wrote: post #8

dfxm12 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that law gets passed, you'll no longer "own" the device you bought that collects that data, but will be granted a license to use it.

I'm sure clever lawyers can come up with a definition of "own" that excludes such trickery.

it would be funny to write license agreements for money. They don't actually "own" the money you "gave" them, you just grant them a license to use your money. Just reciprocate the license. Just put the EULA sticker on all your big bills and they are forced to whatever you want, right?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#153

Post by danso » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #149

danso wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note: I have friends and acquaintances who work at Reveal; I used to work at ProPublica, and the social circle of nonprofit journalism is pretty small. That said, I'm not making an a priori argument that Reveal is right. My objection was to you claiming the DK post has "as little bias as possible", when it seems to be a vigorous defense of Tesla, by a Tesla owner. Again, nothing wrong with stated bias -- I'm objectin…

I've just left a voicemail with Cal/OSHA and am waiting to hear back. If my statement you replied to turns out to be incorrect, I will post a retraction if my edit window times out. If it's true that Tesla is hiding workplace industries, this is of course something that I will want to find a way to get answers to at the annual meeting. That is unacceptable regardless of organization.

I appreciate the followup. Note that I'm not defending the Reveal investigation as a whole, for the sake of this argument. The complaint that Reveal is unfairly or disproportionately criticizing Tesla is not for me to decide. My main point is whether the investigation's primary claim -- that Tesla is undercounting reportable injuries -- is valid.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#154

Post by criddell » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:14 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #78

adrianN wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I mean all data, not just PII. If a Nest measures the temperature in my house I want to own those data points.

Then, and I'm being serious: don't put a Nest in your house. You know what these things are, and you know what the company who makes them does.

Nest shouldn't have any rights to that data any more than Microsoft should have rights to novels written in Word.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#155

Post by chc » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #118

toomuchtodo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article [+] explains it pretty succinctly, with as little bias as possible (TL;DR Tesla is the most shorted stock in the US, while also endangering entrenched interests). [+] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5/29/1767826/-The-War-... EDIT: below content moved up to this comment from danso reply in order to be more concise as well as to keep signal to post ratio high: I do my best to provide non-biased sourc…

> Step up Reveal, an “independent journalism organization” to start “reporting” on Tesla. Quotation marks are normally considered to denote sarcasm, and boy do I ever mean it. Sounds like an article committed to defending Tesla. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but "with as little bias as possible" is debatable.

I don't see how you take the writer saying "These people are reporting outright falsehoods and their falsehoods appear to closely match the talking points of a PR campaign" as an indication that they're committed to defending Tesla. If those facts are true, that seems like the sort of thing an unbiased analysis would explain.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#156

Post by kodablah » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #47

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)

You have succinctly, albeit unintentionally, summed up why the GDPR is often seen as bad. The way I read it "the end goal is good and/or some part of it is good, so it is all good, right?" Requiring transparency requirements of companies like Tesla is laudable without a bunch of baggage and large sweeping changes. Unfortunately people often can't see the difference between intent and implementation and assume you are for both or against both.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#157

Post by gonational » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

jopsen wrote: post #47

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

GDPR doesn't sound so bad now, does it? :)

No.

You know what sounds nice?

Having the choice to not buy a Tesla.

I don’t need Government™ to tell me what kind of contracts I can agree to.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#158

Post by berdon » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

bjpbakker wrote: post #29

berdon wrote: post #13

What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data? Surely the data, itself, isn't very helpful compared to the analysis of the data? Note: My question is in no way trying to argue against the consumer owning the data. I'm just wonderin…

> What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? We can also reverse this question: why would Tesla hide this type of data from their customers so intensely? One reason that comes to mind on both questions, is that customer's (or someone on their behalf) are able to review if the crash is due to software malfunction. > isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black b…

This isn't reversing the question - it's asking an entirely different question. My question was about the value of the data to a consumer. Presumably, this data is a mixture of location history, sensor/actuator logs (maybe human readable?), and maybe various state data for ML algorithms.

Depending on the human "readability" of this data - how could someone without proprietary knowledge find any value in it? That's my question - which is more leading towards "Tesla won't give drivers a means to analyze their crashes" which is a much harder pill to swallow as a Tesla driver, law enforcement officer, etc.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#159

Post by berdon » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #15

berdon wrote: post #13

What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data? Surely the data, itself, isn't very helpful compared to the analysis of the data? Note: My question is in no way trying to argue against the consumer owning the data. I'm just wonderin…

In the cases mentioned, it's not the "average consumer", but the owners who get into crashes and who presumably have a great incentive to figure out what's needed to analyze the data. It's not as if there's only one objective way to analyze the data.

There is only one objective way to analyze data if all it is in a bunch of meaningless numbers without context. That was what my question was about: if the data dump from tesla consists of arrays of numbers for state data for some ML algorithm, how would anyone other than Tesla analyze that?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#160

Post by berdon » Tue, Jun 05, 2018, 4:18 PM UTC

brandonsometig wrote: post #27

berdon wrote: post #13

What use would this type of data be to the average consumer? Outside of the obvious question of ownership and argument of who owns the data - isn't this otherwise very similar to being in a plane crash and demanding the black box data? Surely the data, itself, isn't very helpful compared to the analysis of the data? Note: My question is in no way trying to argue against the consumer owning the data. I'm just wonderin…

Without access to the data we don't know how useful it is full stop.

My question didn't imply you don't have access to it - my question was "if you have access to it" and making general, technical, assumptions on it's likely composition - how could/would it be useful to the layman or even a technical person.