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Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

consumeraffairs.com

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Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#91

Post by Symmetry »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #72
kodablah wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is, if it belongs to me, can I voluntarily give it up even under the known condition I can't ask for it back? I mean, it belongs to me right? That's where these laws often run afoul. You can have more freedom with consequences, or less freedom with restrictions.

Be clear what you mean by voluntary. I agree that preventing a person to choose to sell something they own is a restriction on their freedom. But problems arise when the negotiation of that exchange is unilateral, relegated to EULAs and contracts which are incomprehensible, non-negotiable, and mandatory to purchase the product, and performed in a less-than-perfectly-efficient market. It would be one thing if I could…

I'd be fine if the only way to get a Tesla was to deliberately sign over your rights to the data. But nobody reads the EULA and the vast majority of consumers have no idea that this is something they're agreeing to. I'd really like for us as a society to rethink how consumer consent could work in a way that doesn't require everyone to be a lawyer. But given that most of the rules around this have been constructed implicitly by lawyers and judges I'm not sure how that could happen.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#92

Post by olivermarks »

pwagland wrote: post #39

So this is something that has always kind of bugged me about Tesla. If you have an accident, they are more than happy to drop the crash data "proving" that you were at fault, look at the recent stories about running into a road barrier and the back of a firetruck for recent examples of this. And, of course, they don't ask you first if they can release it. However, if you want the data, you can't have it… you have to…

Accompanying this tight information control your Tesla can only be repaired at a Tesla dealership, with tight control over parts and labor prices.

https://gas2.org/2015/01/06/this-is-what-30000-of-damage-loo... and lots of forum posts out there on this

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#93

Post by kofejnik »

jimmaswell wrote: post #86
adrianN wrote: post #2

Can we make a law that all data collected by devices that I bought belongs to me? Yes, that includes everything the websites I visit send back to the mothership.

There's no real justification for anyone having that right. The device manufacturer/website owner/etc does the work of creating the data, yet you think it's yours?

No, it's my device that creates the data, so it is mine. Otherwise, does the typewriter manufacturer own the stories you type?

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#94

Post by stephengillie »

vinceguidry wrote: post #32

Oh boy, I was so excited to get a Tesla when the time finally came, but if they're still pulling this crap when that happens, guess I'm getting a Benz instead.

My Camry Hybrid has a "black box", but I'm pretty sure I can't get the data.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#95

Post by danso »

jimmaswell wrote: post #88
danso wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to an instance where GM/Ford published a user's data in a press release to defend itself?

Are you saying that it's a bad thing for Tesla to defend itself with its collected data?

No, but based on reading the article, it seems like Tesla owners are particularly engaged on this issue because they've seen how Tesla divulges user data to the public to defend themselves.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#96

Post by kofejnik »

FireBeyond wrote: post #63
yumraj wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd like to go one step further and want the power to delete it, or be deleted, when I want. If I'm allowed to take the 5th to not incriminate myself and not reveal my memory (data in my head), I should be similarly allowed to delete my data when it is my data in my device. It'd be an interesting case to take to the Supreme Court.

I think they would view that as destruction of evidence. The next step in your scenario is "that security camera has data on me, I want it deleted".

I believe GDPR does cover the security camera scenario, there was a comment here about a week ago from someone who successfully petitioned the German police to delete all footage of him at some protest

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#97

Post by [deleted] »

danso wrote: post #81
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to get the data out of your GM or Ford airbag flash storage device (any vehicle with a data logger paired to the airbag subsystem, which is most cars on the road) and see how similar the process is. More “journalistic” nonsense. I agree they have a lot of legitimate issues (cash flow, scaling, retention, working conditions, process maturity, overpromising) to deal with, but can’t journalists focus on those instea…

Can you point to an instance where GM/Ford published a user's data in a press release to defend itself?

[deleted]

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#98

Post by staplers »

jimmaswell wrote: post #86
adrianN wrote: post #2

Can we make a law that all data collected by devices that I bought belongs to me? Yes, that includes everything the websites I visit send back to the mothership.

There's no real justification for anyone having that right. The device manufacturer/website owner/etc does the work of creating the data, yet you think it's yours?

If I kill someone with a hammer, is that the hammer company's liability? If not, then creation of an object (once sold) does not warrant ownership of said product and accompanying data.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#99

Post by kinsomo »

vinceguidry wrote: post #49
toomuchtodo wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try to get the data out of your GM or Ford airbag flash storage device (any vehicle with a data logger paired to the airbag subsystem, which is most cars on the road) and see how similar the process is. More “journalistic” nonsense. I agree they have a lot of legitimate issues (cash flow, scaling, retention, working conditions, process maturity, overpromising) to deal with, but can’t journalists focus on those instea…

Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry. But this? Asking me to take personal responsibility with no legal recourse? This is the line they can't ask me to cross. If this is fake news, fi…

> Tesla's a new company, either they're holding themselves to a higher standard than the establishment or they aren't. If they're not then I'm going with the establishment. I can overlook a great great great many things in service of the cause of disrupting the auto industry.

They're not. They restrict access to the service manuals behind a ridiculously expensive subscription that's only provided in states where it's legally required. It costs $30 a day or $3000 a year.

Service manuals for other cars cost ~$50 for a hardcopy.

https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/tesla-opening-up-service-repl...

Tesla's attitude is almost like you don't own your car, you're just leasing it in perpetuity from Tesla for a one-time fee.

Re: Tesla won’t give drivers their own crash data without a court order

#100

Post by Shivetya »

dfxm12 wrote: post #5
adrianN wrote: post #2

Can we make a law that all data collected by devices that I bought belongs to me? Yes, that includes everything the websites I visit send back to the mothership.

If that law gets passed, you'll no longer "own" the device you bought that collects that data, but will be granted a license to use it.

considering how some manufacturers are monetizing the center console and support applications; go check out onstar to see an example but Audi does it to; you can bet they would want to charge for access as they are providing a service to store it.

Got to amazed at chutzpah some companies have, my favorite whipping boy is Onstar. Here my nice little car has the ability to notify authorities in a crash BUT only if I pay for that service. Now on one hand I would not mind a nice small fee per month, say five bucks or less for something that would infrequently used if ever, but with Onstar the lowest cost is 24.99 a month!!

fwiw, when I had my car new they would even send driving reports, like when the system decided i accelerated to hard, braked too hard, and such. Real joy in what they collect AND sell to third parties

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