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NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

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Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#111

Post by wahern »

hprotagonist wrote: post #109
wahern wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different than orthodox Christian theology. Like with a handful of other unique religions, orthodox Christianity fundamentally put great value into and encouraged work in the temporal world. In Roman Catholic theology science --knowing the physical world through exploration and labor--is at least in principle an avenue of holy revelation similar to that of the bible and the Church. I think the difference is…

could you clarify what you mean by orthodox in this case? This is like, the one place where it really does make a difference. (Roman Catholicism, which is what luther forked, may be little-o orthodox but it is explicitly not big-O Orthodox)

Yeah, I use little "o" for the dominate strain of Christianity that can be traced back to the 4th or 5th centuries and which Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and (to a diminished degree) most Protestant sects can readily and directly trace their doctrines and beliefs. Trinitarianism isn't as good of a fit in this context even though there's substantial overlap. But Trinitarianism would outright exclude, e.g., Mormonism even though I think it's fair to say that much of the social ethos in Mormonism derives from orthodox Christianity, and particularly from aspects of Protestant theology, even if Mormonism doesn't share the once singularly defining characteristic of orthodox Christianity. That shared characteristic--that engaging in the world and doing good works matters, however it's framed doctrinally--is what I wanted to emphasize.

At the very least I think it helps exclude all the niche sects, old and new, that pedantic people could bring up as exceptions to generalizations about the origin and evolution of Western value systems.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#112

Post by wahern »

lainga wrote: post #110
wahern wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no different than orthodox Christian theology. Like with a handful of other unique religions, orthodox Christianity fundamentally put great value into and encouraged work in the temporal world. In Roman Catholic theology science --knowing the physical world through exploration and labor--is at least in principle an avenue of holy revelation similar to that of the bible and the Church. I think the difference is…

Well, as far as I was taught growing up Roman Catholic, you were supposed to be faithful and good, and honour God every day, and over time your soul would be saved through faith and good deeds. In old-school Calvinism, original sin is upon you until He takes it away, like the bomb in Jackie Chan's mouth in Rush Hour 2, and he'll just as quickly give it back if you break the faith. EDIT: not the mark of Cain, duh...

I'm not sure that's official Catholic doctrine[1] but in any event compared to many other religions, and many strains of Christianity (think early Gnostic sects) it's all splitting hairs. People quibble endlessly over how and why good works and labor are important--do they reflect salvation or further salvation?--but I don't think those theological distinctions have substantively effected our political culture. Such minor distinctions are exaggerated by denominations precisely because of their larger shared characteristics that require them to work hard at differentiating themselves. Most of these nuances lose their importance when, e.g., comparing Christianity to Islam, Buddhism, or Hinduism.

[1] AFAIU official Roman Catholic doctrine, as well as most Protestant faiths, is that salvation only comes from the grace of God; and that the only sure-fire way of receiving that grace is wholehearted belief in Jesus Christ as the son of God who died for the remission of sin. But that just begs the question of what "belief" means, thus the centuries of dispute subsequent to the domination of Trinitarianism.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#113

Post by prawn »

wahern wrote: post #106
prawn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered how the political right in the West ended up with such seemingly odd bedfellows as capitalism and religion. e.g., the Jesus of stories seems like a potentially Socialist sort? A friend of mine thought that it was likely that the pairing was a reaction to the communism and atheism of the USSR.

Selection bias? Cultures (including religions) that reject capitalist values are disadvantaged in terms of global industry. One might expect dominate industrial powers to either outright reject community-oriented religious systems or for such religious systems to internalize capitalist values.

I think there's probably something to that. Insightful!

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#114

Post by jhanschoo »

meric wrote: post #45

I hope the "That this nation shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the state by the state for the state shall not perish from the Earth" (with "under God" struck out) poster meant something other than its literal meaning...

The state words in red allude to Soviet communism, and of course, its totalitarian governance model.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#115

Post by jhanschoo »

Iv wrote: post #14

"Men must be governed by God or they will be rules by tyrans" Ah... O tempora, o mores...

Heh, Cicero wouldn't have said that himself; he was a republican and would advocate for the rule and freedom of the patricians and senators, rather than mob rule or kingly rule. Theocratic rulership was definitely out of the question.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#116

Post by lainga »

wahern wrote: post #112
lainga wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, as far as I was taught growing up Roman Catholic, you were supposed to be faithful and good, and honour God every day, and over time your soul would be saved through faith and good deeds. In old-school Calvinism, original sin is upon you until He takes it away, like the bomb in Jackie Chan's mouth in Rush Hour 2, and he'll just as quickly give it back if you break the faith. EDIT: not the mark of Cain, duh...

I'm not sure that's official Catholic doctrine[1] but in any event compared to many other religions, and many strains of Christianity (think early Gnostic sects) it's all splitting hairs. People quibble endlessly over how and why good works and labor are important--do they reflect salvation or further salvation?--but I don't think those theological distinctions have substantively effected our political culture. Such…

I was trying to refer to the doctrine of righteousness being infused vs. imparted.

Re: NSA posters from the 50s and 60s [pdf]

#117

Post by dredmorbius »

schoen wrote: post #40
_8j50 wrote: post #19

You know,the scary thing about the US intelligence community isn't that they all are "after out liberties" or "againsy our privacy". My experience and encounters related to the IC scare me because they genuinely believe they're the good guys who're on the right side of justice. The real scary part is that they are scared of what will happen if they don't do something (where something entails disregarding laws and the…

> The real scary part is that they are scared of what will happen if they don't do something In the context of these posters, the implied "what will happen" is mostly worldwide Communist revolution with the U.S. losing the Cold War. You can see that for example in the poster depicting the edited version of the Gettysburg Address, which someone commented on elsewhere in this thread. The concern is worldwide totalitari…

Any particular background on any of this you might recommend?
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