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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#361

Post by rockdoe »

pjmlp wrote: post #297
sparky_ wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't expect there will ever be an AAA game presence on macOS at this point, given so few of their machines offer dedicated GPUs anymore. And even in cases where they are available, for example Macbook Pros, the cost difference involved in stepping up from an integrated GPU to an entry-level dedicated card is greater than the cost of buying an Xbox or PlayStation.

Which none of them support either Vulkan or OpenGL.

XBoxes and PlayStations have been getting more game ports than macOS tho, doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#362

Post by pjmlp »

wolfgke wrote: post #358
pjmlp wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trend around me is to see the shops that used to sell PC parts closing down, while consumer stores have 80% of their PC surface full with laptops, tablets and mobile devices.

> The trend around me is to see the shops that used to sell PC parts closing down Couldn't this be simply explained by the hypothesis that people simply buy their PC parts mostly in the internet instead of a brick and mortar shop?

It could, but I am willing to bet that is even more niche than going to a physical shop.

The kind of experts capable of understanding if they are ordering hardware that is supposed to work together instead of blowing up in some form when assembled, is quite tiny.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#363

Post by pjmlp »

rockdoe wrote: post #361
pjmlp wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which none of them support either Vulkan or OpenGL.

XBoxes and PlayStations have been getting more game ports than macOS tho, doesn't take a genius to figure out why.

Consoles always had more game ports that other computer systems.

Having a fixed set of hardware to target is a dream.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#364

Post by rockdoe »

fulafel wrote: post #242
outworlder wrote: post #83

This is a problem that is entirely of Apple's own doing. Microsoft could not care less about OpenGL on Windows. However, it works just fine. You know why? As soon as you install your video card drivers, your OpenGL implementation is no longer from Microsoft. It comes from AMD, NVidia or Intel, with all needed optimizations for their hardware. Apple insisted in not allowing this and doing the OpenGL implementation the…

OpenGL is very much a second class citizen on Windows. Mass-market OpenGL apps like browsers currently use ANGLE to emulate OpenGL on top of D3D. Native OpenGL is used in professional apps that can make demands on GPU and driver setups. (Many toolkits, like Qt and Cocos2d, also use ANGLE on Windows for OpenGL functionality)

This is to a large extent because browsers can't make the same assumptions about reasonable graphics drivers being installed as games can.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#365

Post by rockdoe »

waynecochran wrote: post #220
mbell wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? Last week. Nvidia releases drivers for cards that the drivers which ship with macos don't support. I would also guess that the nvidia drivers which ship with macos are written by nvidia under some agreement with apple, same is likely true of AMD and intel.

Yes, but you need to switch to an older version of of Xcode/ developers tools if you want to program CUDA on a Mac. Specifically I have to switch back to last Decembers release when I want to do any CUDA development on my 2015 MacBook (I don't think there is any later Mac's that even support nVidia).

That is not a macOS specific problem. Because CUDA interacts with the compiler, you can have exactly the same problems on Linux with gcc.

(Ironically, using OpenCL avoids this problem)

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#366

Post by glenneroo »

wolfgke wrote: post #158
exelius wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone is coasting in the desktop / laptop market. Refresh cycles are like 5-10 years on PCs now, and it’s not clear tablets even have a refresh cycle. You can’t get growth on PC hardware anymore, not even if you’re Apple. So it goes into maintenance mode. Nobody even really sells desktop PCs anymore except custom gaming rigs and low-power kiosk boxes. Apple is all about mobile phones, the Apple Watch and air pods…

> Nobody even really sells desktop PCs anymore except custom gaming rigs and low-power kiosk boxes. My personal impression is that while pre-built PCs are mostly sold to businesses, there is a strong growing trend since a few years to build your own PC from parts. I really do observe that if mobility is not an issue, people now tend to move away from laptops towards self-built PCs (or often rather: let a good friend…

GPU prices seem to be normalizing the past week, at least here in Europe using historical price data from Geizhals[0]. If things continue we will be back to "normal" 2017 prices very shortly.

[0]: www.geizhals.eu

Examples:

1070: https://geizhals.eu/?phist=1456548

1070 TI: https://geizhals.eu/?phist=1717563

1080: https://geizhals.eu/?phist=1449277

1080 TI: https://geizhals.eu/?phist=1587606

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#367

Post by rockdoe »

mbell wrote: post #189
outworlder wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-... Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack. http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-…

> Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? Last week. Nvidia releases drivers for cards that the drivers which ship with macos don't support. I would also guess that the nvidia drivers which ship with macos are written by nvidia under some agreement with apple, same is likely true of AMD and intel.

Last week. Nvidia releases drivers for cards that the drivers which ship with macos don't support.

That's a tiny part of Apple's lineup though.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#368

Post by hellofunk »

Why is anyone surprised by this? Apple has a decades-long history of taking outdated technology and making it obsolete by forcefully removing it (which they haven't actually done yet with OpenGL):

Parallel Ports

Floppy Drives

CD/DVD Drives

Older USB, Firewire ports

Network ports

They were the first to remove all this stuff, and everyone was shocked. Now they are doing this with an API. Both Apple and Microsoft have long ago created much more modern, highly performant graphics technologies over what OpenGL offers, and serious vendors support platform-specific APIs most of the time. If it takes Apple to do this and say to the world "wake up, OpenGL sucks," I view that as progress.

Despite, I don't think your OpenGL app will fail to run on Mac any time soon. I suspect it's years away before they actually remove it entirely.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#369

Post by pjmlp »

mrec wrote: post #356
pjmlp wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only on desktop. In case you missed the news, only DirectX is supported on UWP and store apps. To the point that Microsoft has their own port of Angle. https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/uwp/gaming/compare-... https://github.com/Microsoft/angle So unless they change their mind, say goodbye to ICD drivers on Windows as well.

Is UWP/Store actually taking off? I was under the impression that it was another flop. I run Windows at home, but wouldn't if it went Store-only. For me, an open platform is the only thing Windows had going for it.

Yes, little by little.

Quite a few apps like Adobe XD are store only.

Next Office for Windows 10 is only available via the store.

Microsoft has taken the other approach, if apps don't come to the store, the store comes to the apps.

So thanks to the outcome of Project Centennial, they are now merging the UWP and Win32 worlds into Windows containers and making the store Win32 aware as well.

https://bramwolfs.com/2018/03/13/msix-the-platform-for-all-w...

Deep down session from BUILD here, https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2018/BRK2432

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#370

Post by Const-me »

vonmoltke wrote: post #345
kayoone wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc, which all support Metal already. Hardly anyone writes their own game engines these days, and if they do they probably have the resources to support Metal. Overall still a bummer though.

> To be fair, most games today are built using Unity3D, Unreal Engine etc What's the "etc"? Are there any other engines in that set?

Cocos2D, CryEngine, MonoGame, Orge, Unigine, etc…
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