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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#191

Post by bananaboy »

SwellJoe wrote: post #174
kilon wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope most of them use some sort of game Engine, unreal and Unity dominate. MacOS gaming is not only not dead it’s flourishing rapidly. Take a trip to Steam shop. You will find a massive amount of games are made for MacOS and the numbers are growing rapidly since Apple lost interest into OpenGL. But then MacOS has reached a 10% of the desktop market making it much harder to ignore than in the past when it barely reach…

"Nope most of them use some sort of game Engine, unreal and Unity dominate." But, don't those engines use OpenGL on the backend? They need some sort of interface to the GPU, and AFAIK, OpenGL is it for both Mac OS and Linux. Edit: Yes, at least Unity does. I can't find an authoritative source on Unreal. https://forum.unity.com/threads/opengl-core-backend-default-... Edit2: Found Unreal info...they switched to Metal i…

Unity already supports Metal on OSX and iOS. See "Enabling Metal" here: https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/UsingDX11GL3Features.html

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#192

Post by outworlder »

Firecracker wrote: post #186
outworlder wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-... Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack. http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-…

NVIDIA has mac drivers for their whole consumer line. For example https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10...

Good to know. It seems that they also provide updated CUDA drivers.

It doesn't seem to change anything on the OpenGL stack, unfortunately.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#193

Post by bananaboy »

kilon wrote: post #156
Unknoob wrote: post #31

Aren't most of the games on MacOS running on OpenGL? This is going to kill all the older titles that are not maintained anymore. Terrible move just to push Metal down people throats. As if MacOS gaming wasn't dead enough.

Nope most of them use some sort of game Engine, unreal and Unity dominate. MacOS gaming is not only not dead it’s flourishing rapidly. Take a trip to Steam shop. You will find a massive amount of games are made for MacOS and the numbers are growing rapidly since Apple lost interest into OpenGL. But then MacOS has reached a 10% of the desktop market making it much harder to ignore than in the past when it barely reach…

If you look at the most recent Steam hardware survey though 96.3% of players are on Windows and 3.07% are on macOS. I don't know if that's "flourishing rapidly". It's certainly going up slowly. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#194

Post by thewizardofaus »

jblow wrote: post #185
GuB-42 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is pretty. Much prettier than these Metal and Vulkan abominations. The difference is that OpenGL is designed to be easy for humans. glBegin(GL_TRIANGLES); glVertex3f(x, y, z)...; glEnd(); you can't beat that. The issue is that it hard for the driver to optimize. That's where Metal and Vulkan come into play. These are low level APIs, sacrificing user friendliness for a greater control over the hardware. It is d…

Nope, glVertex3f was deprecated years ago by OpenGL itself. That is not the way the API works any more. [1] Look into what it takes to write the minimum viable OpenGL program, written using non-deprecated routines, that puts a textured triangle on the screen. It sucks. On top of that, OpenGL is slow and gives you no way to create programs with smooth performance -- for example, it will randomly recompile shaders behi…

Each to their own but over the last 6 months I've written a graphics engine in openGL + SDL. Once you truly understand modern openGL you realise how beautiful it is.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#195

Post by SquareWheel »

adamredwoods wrote: post #89
ksk wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is no equivalent, but WebGL is not a mature technology. Webgl stuff still breaks or has performance bugs whenever some part of the OS/Browser/GPU Driver/GPU Hardware sandwich changes. You can run the conformance tests yourself.

I don't see how a technology can get to a mature status if a major hardware company decides to not support it. The real question is WHY don't they support it? Is there a webMetal?

There might be, but we rejected it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13593272

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#197

Post by GeekyBear »

outworlder wrote: post #178
GeekyBear wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? The real question is why would a GPU vendor go through the expense of creating and supporting such an implementation when Apple doesn't even make a computer with slots that you can install their video cards into? If producing an OpenGL implementation doesn't provide a competitive advantage for selling their products, why…

> What makes you think that Apple refuses to allow GPU vendors to provide an OpenGL implementation? Because it is a fact that Apple develops their own drivers. Also, when did you last download a driver update from NVidia for your Mac? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/02/vulkan-is-coming-to-... Article is about Vulkan, but briefly mention Apple's own outdated OpenGL stack. http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/04/sad-…

Yes, once upon a time both Microsoft and Apple provided an implementation of OpenGL with their OS.

When Microsoft abandoned OpenGL for DirectX, GPU vendors produced their own OpenGL implementations because doing so provided a competitive advantage that allowed them to sell more product.

The question is, why would those GPU vendors do the same thing now that Apple is following the same path?

Apple doesn't even produce a computer with slots you can install their products into.

>EDIT: Some more research seems to indicate that there are drivers developed by NVidia for the NVidia Quadro GPU line.

Keep doing research, because NVidia provides downloadable Pascal drivers even though the last time Apple produced a computer with a PCI slot was the Cheese Grater Mac Pro which came out over a decade ago.

https://9to5mac.com/2017/09/27/nvidia-pascal-drivers-high-si...

Making sure nothing diminishes CUDA is very much in NVidia's competitive interest.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#198

Post by fooster »

jblow wrote: post #185
GuB-42 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenGL is pretty. Much prettier than these Metal and Vulkan abominations. The difference is that OpenGL is designed to be easy for humans. glBegin(GL_TRIANGLES); glVertex3f(x, y, z)...; glEnd(); you can't beat that. The issue is that it hard for the driver to optimize. That's where Metal and Vulkan come into play. These are low level APIs, sacrificing user friendliness for a greater control over the hardware. It is d…

Nope, glVertex3f was deprecated years ago by OpenGL itself. That is not the way the API works any more. [1] Look into what it takes to write the minimum viable OpenGL program, written using non-deprecated routines, that puts a textured triangle on the screen. It sucks. On top of that, OpenGL is slow and gives you no way to create programs with smooth performance -- for example, it will randomly recompile shaders behi…

> for example, it will randomly recompile shaders behind your back while you are trying to have a smooth frame rate.

What? I've written commercial games with opengl on osx/ios and my experience doesn't show that at all.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#199

Post by GeekyBear »

outworlder wrote: post #192
Firecracker wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVIDIA has mac drivers for their whole consumer line. For example https://images.nvidia.com/mac/pkg/387/WebDriver-387.10.10.10...

Good to know. It seems that they also provide updated CUDA drivers. It doesn't seem to change anything on the OpenGL stack, unfortunately.

It just goes to show that NVidia thinks supporting CUDA everywhere is very much in their competitive interest, while creating and supporting an OpenGL implementation simply is not.
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