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Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

developer.apple.com

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Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#61

Post by coldtea »

larsiusprime wrote: post #50
coldtea wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring developers to use an API locked to a particular platform feels pretty hostile to me. So like DirectX?

I sure hate it when Microsoft does it, but at least they have market share. Who wants to support Metal just to target the Mac? And last I checked I have the choice of OpenGL and Vulkan on Windows because these days MS doesn't control the hardware stack from top to bottom on their software platform.

>I sure hate it when Microsoft does it, but at least they have market share. Who wants to support Metal just to target the Mac?

Plenty of big 3D/CAD/etc players? In lots of creative areas, the Mac dominates still (despite stories about people moving to Windows nobody's going anywhere, where nobody = quite few creatives overall).

Besides, with Metal they'll target iOS as well, and that's a huge platform, and where most of the profits are for mobile.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#62

Post by rbanffy »

dgellow wrote: post #54
Unknoob wrote: post #31

Aren't most of the games on MacOS running on OpenGL? This is going to kill all the older titles that are not maintained anymore. Terrible move just to push Metal down people throats. As if MacOS gaming wasn't dead enough.

That’s a really worrying point, yes. Mac users can say goodbye to the majority of our steam library.

It will take a couple more releases for it to stop working.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#63

Post by seba_dos1 »

DCKing wrote: post #49
fabian2k wrote: post #28

OpenGL isn't pretty, but it's at least cross-platform. And my impression was that OpenGL support is mostly handled by the GPU manufacturers, so I'm not sure how much Apple gains here by deprecating OpenGL. Requiring developers to use an API locked to a particular platform feels pretty hostile to me. Doesn't matter if that API isn't perfect, or even far from it.

Although I agree it's a terrible decision for Apple only to have Apple-specific graphics APIs, please note that: * Being deprecated does not mean that things will suddenly stop working. It will take a few more releases of macOS before this can be removed. * Next to MoltenVK there is MoltenGL, which is an implementation of OpenGL ES 2.0 that runs on (edit) Metal [1]. That indicates it's at least feasible to wrap OpenG…

Did you mean Metal instead of Vulkan? :P

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#64

Post by vortico »

mdanger007 wrote: post #45
Philipp__ wrote: post #34

What the fuck?! I don’t get it, why?! They want us to focus on Metal? I definitely need to but desktop now, plus I want CUDA! Ryzen 5 2600X with GTX1070 and I’m done.

Got a caller on hold, says his name is The Future. He wants to talk to you about Metal Framework.

The future is Vulkan, not Metal.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#65

Post by coldtea »

mikenew wrote: post #58
coldtea wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All they'll accomplish is further killing off the already-small presence they have in the gaming space. In the AAA game space you mean. Else, in the casual gaming space, iOS is perhaps the most popular platform -- and the new integration effort means all those games will be able to run on macOS as well soon.

And those games are horrible. Almost all of them are built around exploiting weaknesses in the human psyche to convince people to spend money and become addicted. The biggest difference between those games and gambling is that you don't carry a slot machine in your pocket. For the most part the only exceptions to that are the games that were ported from desktop.

>And those games are horrible.

They work fine for me -- both as implementation and as gameplay.

>Almost all of them are built around exploiting weaknesses in the human psyche to convince people to spend money and become addicted.

I think you confused casual gaming with Zynga or something. I was referring to smaller, non-AAA megatitles. Could be anything from a platform game, to Angry Birds, Monument Valley, Threes, Letterpress, racing games, RPGs and so on...

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#66

Post by vvanders »

endorphone wrote: post #51
_bxg1 wrote: post #32

Ugggggh. As if graphics support on macOS weren't middling enough already. It's like they're trying to become as irrelevant as possible in that area. I could understand if they were deprecating it in favor of Vulkan. That would be in-line with Apple's history of aggressively pushing forward new standards. But by no means do they have the clout to coerce developers into their own bespoke graphics API that doesn't work…

"But by no means to they have the clout to coerce developers into their own bespoke graphics API that doesn't work anywhere else" To be fair, the overwhelming majority of game shops develop on engines, and leave the engines to deal with the platforms. Unreal Engine, Unity, etc, support Metal, among others.

Not everything that runs on OpenGL is a video game. Tons of applications out there that just won't have the budget to do a rewrite(and even fewer were probably setup with the right architecture if they were depending on OpenGL in the first place).

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#67

Post by zamalek »

mtgx wrote: post #6
shurcooL wrote: post #2

I would be a lot more okay with this if Apple supported Vulkan, the more portable comparable API, rather than just the macOS/iOS-only Metal. I also wonder what means for WebGL and its future. Right now, WebGL works in browsers on macOS, Linux, Windows, iOS, Android, which is incredible. There is no equivalent. Sure, Apple has started working on WebGPU, but that’s not yet ready nor is it guaranteed to gain Linux, Wind…

WebGPU would gain traction if it was based on Vulkan. But it's not. However, Mozilla's Obsidian API is: https://github.com/KhronosGroup/WebGLNext-Proposals/tree/mas... Apple has so little to gain over Vulkan by developing its own API but so much to lose by not adopting Vulkan (gaming companies may actually prefer developing games on the cross-platform Vulkan to target macOS/iOS devices, too, at the same time, instead…

> instead of using DirectX

Maybe Nadella will push for Vulkan support on Xbox, or maybe Xbox will die off, who knows. Unless one of those happens, DirectX is not going away. As soon as consoles come into the equation, you are stuck writing a PAL (or using an existing engine that already has one) because they use proprietary APIs and that's unlikely to change.

It's not ideal, but that's the reality. Apple is following the idiotic status quo, but it's not fair to single them out for it (that being said, at least Microsoft supports Vulkan and OGL on one of their platforms - but the 3rd-party driver developers are mostly responsible for the great support).

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#69

Post by phkahler »

coldtea wrote: post #65
mikenew wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And those games are horrible. Almost all of them are built around exploiting weaknesses in the human psyche to convince people to spend money and become addicted. The biggest difference between those games and gambling is that you don't carry a slot machine in your pocket. For the most part the only exceptions to that are the games that were ported from desktop.

> And those games are horrible. They work fine for me -- both as implementation and as gameplay. > Almost all of them are built around exploiting weaknesses in the human psyche to convince people to spend money and become addicted. I think you confused casual gaming with Zynga or something. I was referring to smaller, non-AAA megatitles. Could be anything from a platform game, to Angry Birds, Monument Valley, Threes,…

I played the fuck out of Angry Birds - on Android. How exactly does forcing developers to adopt a platform specific API help anyone? That was a rhetorical question BTW, don't even try to answer it. Apple are being arrogant as fuck with this.

Re: Deprecation of OpenGL and OpenCL

#70

Post by tobyhinloopen »

Well most games using OpenGL run like crap anyway on macOS. The Windows version alwys runs better in Windows via Bootcamp.

Maybe the forced Metal usage (however shitty it is to remove support for an open standard) will increase macOS ports of games.

But in reality, 50% games will still be a wine bottle

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