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What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

jacquesmattheij.com

171–180 of 228 posts

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I'm entirely OK with making it scary and a little difficult. And it's not just IT professionals, but also their friends and family, especially those that can't afford to or don't want to get a new device that often. I think this is a pretty significant set of people.

So are you not ok with the concept that some people don't need that option and, as long as the vendor is clear about what is and isn't possible, having some devices that are more locked down that others is acceptable?

If I knew that to be the end-game and if I knew it to be an informed choice on the part of consumers, yes, I'd be OK with that.

My two reservations:

1. I think such a lockdown is a kind of hidden anti-competitive "dark pattern" that benefits the seller much more than it benefits the consumer by significantly lowering the the reuse/resale value of the device. One could argue it makes the device cheaper to begin with, but I have serious doubts about that. The anti-competitive effect seems more likely to increase the price instead. Hindering reuse also implies an environmental impact, though I'm not sure how significant that is.

2. If lockdown becomes the norm for >99% of devices/users and even we tech people start to accept it the way of things, some sufficiently bribed lawmakers will no doubt be inclined to make unsurveiled general purpose computing illegal because "security" and "copyright" and "pro-business" etc. Yes, it's a "slipper slope" argument, but when it comes to social norms, I think that's a valid form of argument.

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#172
post #13

Assuming GitHub was actually losing money and couldn't fix that problem quickly enough it's fair to assume they had to sell, and it's reasonable to believe there aren't that many companies who could have bought them if you think an understanding of the domain is important, then you're really limited to Facebook (user surveillance, adverts), Apple (bad at software, not developer friendly), Google (user surveillance, a…

Microsoft is the worst-case. Everything Microsoft touches turns into dirt.

Google would had run it very successful for a few years, and then suddenly shut it down. Oracle would have strangled it slowly, and then given in to the Apache foundation (where projects go to die).

Facebook may actually have been a good choice - except for us select few who don't use Facebook at all.

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#173
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that Microsoft are the largest corporate contributor to open source projects on Github right?

Imagine there are two cities in a country, city A and city B. The president lives in city A and is very popular there, but not so much in city B. Person from city B: I hate the president. He never did anything good for our people. Person from city A: On the contrary, this is the best president we had in forever. In fact he built 5 hospitals and 10 schools in our city alone! How can you possibly hate him? Like, maybe…

I don't think the issue is where MS has contributed in terms of open source. For me, it doesn't matter: It's great that they do it, but their history of aquiring companies and driving their products into walls (like Skype and so many others) hasn't changed. So, when I see "MS acquires open source hosting platform", I'm thinking about that, not how many lines of code they've opensourced.

Of course, if MS wanted to dampen that reaction, they could distribute the whole code for GitHub as a platform under an open source license - I just can't imagine them doing that.

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#174
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I admit I may be ignorant, but could you spell out the security benefits of going from "locked down but user-openable" to "not user-openable"? (edit: specifically benefits that couldn't be effectively addressed by making it a little difficult and scary to open that lockdown?)

If it's openable it's not locked down. If I can't trust the kernel then every level above it is tainted (this is assuming you can trust the CPU and firmware, but at least ARM is better than Intel here).

OK, let me be more accurate: "user-openable" in the sense that the user is free to choose to trust any OS vendor they want. What's the unmitigatable harm?

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#175
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Apple not developer friendly?

> How is Apple not developer friendly? I’m going to put in some good faith and assume this comment was meant sarcastically and not as a pure trolling.

You haven't dealt with Apple faithful much I presume.

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#176
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that Microsoft are the largest corporate contributor to open source projects on Github right?

Imagine there are two cities in a country, city A and city B. The president lives in city A and is very popular there, but not so much in city B. Person from city B: I hate the president. He never did anything good for our people. Person from city A: On the contrary, this is the best president we had in forever. In fact he built 5 hospitals and 10 schools in our city alone! How can you possibly hate him? Like, maybe…

> I'm not even sure what their open source projects are.

.NET ?

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#177

I don't disagree with any of what he says. But he only includes the negative things they did. It's also worth remembering that ms also helped democratise computing. In the late eighties, early nineties Unix was an ivory tower. Only large organisations could afford it. Apple was expensive and closed. Windows was cheap and open. It worked with every kind of hardware and peripheral. And with dev tools like VB a lot of s…

> ms also helped democratise computing

I find that laughable. Their client and processor licensing model is of the Oracle school.

Large OEM's are still paying the MS tax on machines supplied are they not? (MS get fee on every OEM machine sold regardless of whether it includes Windows. Buy a Dell Linux laptop and MS still get their $x)

> Unix was an ivory tower

Hmm. What of BSD+FreeBSD? Hell even MS Xenix ran on 10x the range of machines that Windows did.

Late 80s, early 90s folks like Sequent were charging a bomb because they included 4 or 8 processors and gobs of memory (for the time). Sun and SGI charged a fortune because 50% of the machine cost was the graphics and IO, and a net stack that worked. A Sun lunchbox wasn't that much more than an equivalent spec PC of the time but gave SCSI and networking. None of that plug and pray or fucking around with INT settings in BIOS, driver settings or it suddenly developing amnesia.

SunOS (usually) just worked, Windows usually didn't until Win2k finally arrived and you could actually have uptime over a daily reboot.

The expensive stuff in the Unix world was where there was no comparison in teh PC world or you scaled up. Multi processors, Sun pizza boxes where 50% of the cost was the top end graphics (always buy the flight sim CD when speccing that one), 100+ serial ports, racks full of USR Couriers etc. NT didn't scale (see Hotmail and the infamous scaling demo scam).

> Windows was cheap and open

It was neither.

I'm not going to reopen VB memories. :)

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#178
post #106

Microsoft is not a company that ever contributed my life as a Linux user and open source contributor for years. In fact, it always made life harder for me. Here is a recent example; because Microsoft made a deal with Lenovo, now new Thinkpads are designed for just Windows. If you're a Linux user, good luck in your new adventure. People say "isn't it like IOS or Android?"; it's not. We had this freedom of using Linux,…

Closed hardware. Microsoft is just following Apple's lead here.

Re: What is wrong with Microsoft buying GitHub

#180
post #164
post #106

Microsoft is not a company that ever contributed my life as a Linux user and open source contributor for years. In fact, it always made life harder for me. Here is a recent example; because Microsoft made a deal with Lenovo, now new Thinkpads are designed for just Windows. If you're a Linux user, good luck in your new adventure. People say "isn't it like IOS or Android?"; it's not. We had this freedom of using Linux,…

So, are you saying that both Lenovo (that say in manual for x280 that in select countries it ships with Ubuntu) and Ubuntu (That here https://certification.ubuntu.com/hardware/201801-26057/ claim "certified pre-install for Ubuntu.") are lying? If you are using Linux you are using Linux kernel that is managed by git. Microsoft contributes to git.

> Linux kernel that is managed by git. Microsoft contributes to git

This is a little misleading. MS does not contribute to git for Linux development. Instead, they only provide windows specific patches (AFAICT, would like to be proven wrong).

Their GVfs [0] is windows only, and they maintain a fork of Git with "microsoft specific patches" [1].

[0] - https://github.com/Microsoft/GVFS

[1] - https://github.com/Microsoft/git

(edit: formatting)

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