China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other • Hacker News Board

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#151

Post by ajross » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:09 PM UTC

landryraccoon wrote: post #136

Laforet wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

> I very much doubt it is sustainable. What if you're wrong? You have doubts, where's the evidence? > What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict This part I don't see at all. Who are the sides in this low intensity conflict? The examples in Wikipedia are distinct identities or states. What identities are in contention in China?

> What if you're wrong? You have doubts, where's the evidence?

There's not enough data to make predictions like that. But one very good reason for optimism is that China's current totalitarian stability is an unstable false vacuum. It's sustained by the outrageously rapid economic growth seen in the decades since the cultural revolution.

Basically: if you're Chinese, your grandparents (if they were lucky) survived a devastating world war and invasion by Japan, an even more devastating civil war, and a yet more devastating still famine forced on them by the nutjobs who won the civil war.

And now their grandkids are all running around with smartphones in their pockets, collecting college diplomas and international graduate degrees, vacationing in Thailand and Hawaii, and generally dancing on the world stage like the Americans do.

That kind of success pays for a lot of totalitarian angst. But it won't forever. These folks' kids aren't going to be happy with only 2% GDP growth as payment for their political dominance by a corrupt elite. The proletariat never has been.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#152

Post by iamthirsty » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:09 PM UTC

Karishma1234 wrote: post #137

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

> In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. At the height of civil war the western classical liberal democracies looked weak and near collapse while Soviet looked too strong and awesome until one day it just collapsed. It is a bubble boy vs Sewer Rat thing. The bubble boy looks extremely clean and insulated from bad things until one day it just dies of common cold. The f…

> At the height of civil war the western classical liberal democracies looked weak and near collapse w hile Soviet looked too strong and awesome until one day it just collapsed.

FYI the American Civil War ended in 1865 while the first Soviet was in 1905. And the first ~10 years after the ‘17 revolution were absolutely terrible in the Soviet Union. So your statement just isn’t correct.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#153

Post by obelix_ » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:10 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

Yup Trump, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, the 2008 meltdown, Zuckerberg turning the internet into his private sewage factory etc etc are all shining achievements of western wisdom and deep thought. The poor unimaginative illiterates of the Orient just don't get it. If only they understood what magic freedom can produce.

Btw I suggest you reread your French Revolution history. The aristocracy was very much back in power within a year of the king getting his head chopped off. And then they propped up Napoloen who decided he needed to conquer the world. The next 100 years were spent with the elites of one European country or another colonising and pilaging most of South America, Africa and Asia. So much for freedom and equality and the aristocracy learning any lesson. They are still more of less in power with the same mindless global ambitions unless you haven't seen the inequality numbers and have your head buried deep in the sand.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#154

Post by kinsomo » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

igivanov wrote: post #56

surfanddurf wrote: post #31

I think we, as the world, need to counter this by 1.) Start moving factories out China, back into your local country. It could be an upgrade for companies to upgrade to more automated factories. Furthermore, it fights against China's agenda of 'Made in China in 2025', which they expect to make....everything in China. 2.) Shame companies that are investing further in China, destroying jobs in your local country. 3.) S…

In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that?

> In other news, the US, NATO and friends in this century alone destroyed Iraq, Libya, almost destroyed Syria and Yemen and did a few other nasty things that resulted in at least a million dead. Do you have a big enough item 5 for that?

Destroyed? You'll need to provide some pretty strong proof to convince me those countries aren't there anymore.

Also the Syria and Yemen are civil wars. Don't know how you think it's reasonable to pin that on the "US, NATO and friends" (that is, unless you want to do something silly like trace things too far back to look for butterflies, ignore a lot of recent history, and remove all agency from the locals).

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#155

Post by madengr » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:12 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#156

Post by musage » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

[dead]

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#157

Post by imglorp » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:16 PM UTC

Laforet wrote: post #81

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

I very much doubt it is sustainable. The cost of policing is quite substantial and the productivity lost is hard to replace which adds to the cost. What we are seeing today is essentially a low intensity conflict[0] not unlike what took place in white Rhodesia/Namibia, Northern Ireland during the troubles, etc. There is a economic reason why these conflicts could not last indefinitely, no matter what ideologies drive…

Technology is making the price plummet of policing a large population. Natural language recognition, face recognition, location tracking, pattern-matching, deep packet inspection, graph traversal, and of course AI can all run unattended pointing out dissidents to the authorities who just have to go round them up and reeducate them. Oh and guess what China is making a big investment in lately?

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#158

Post by kinsomo » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

siidooloo wrote: post #148

em3rgent0rdr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "only way for totalitarianism to “work” is if the rulers are both much smarter than the population as a whole" The party can pick the smart people from population to join.

That didn’t work for the USSR, why would it work for China? As long as some things are off limits / as long as people know they arn’t alowed to research this or that, then they’ll be at a long term disadvantage to those that do. China was here before. Cutting yourself off from the world just means you eventually find yourself having fallen behind everyone else.

> That didn’t work for the USSR, why would it work for China?

The CCP does have the benefit of learning from the failures of the Soviets.

> China was here before. Cutting yourself off from the world just means you eventually find yourself having fallen behind everyone else.

That mainly happened because they were so dominant in their sphere that they didn't bother themselves with far off areas that seemed primitive to them. I'm pretty sure the CCP has learned from that mistake.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#159

Post by pas » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:18 PM UTC

nomass wrote: post #132

As a European I hope we find the courage and the strength to allow ourselves to be militarized as we where at the beginning of the 20th century. I think to a certain degree a military conflict with China would not be a bad thing. Here we have achived quite a few things of which each of his own would be worth dying for. Typical western values are seriously underrated and are not taken seriously.

Instead of military spending, we should get our education and politics act together. We should be at least ready to pivot to self sufficiency.

We depend on Putin's mercy for energy, because a lot of us skipped game theory in kindergarden apparently. Someone mentioned cell phones. Yes that'd be good, to have a full end to end electronics pipeline around here. And so on.

Re: China has turned Xinjiang into a police state like no other

#160

Post by krapp » Sat, Jun 02, 2018, 11:19 PM UTC

madengr wrote: post #155

tc wrote: post #58

In the West we have a false sense of security that totalitarianism will inevitably fail. We've seen so many examples of fallen tyrannical states. But many ideas fail the first few times they're tried. China seems committed to making totalitarianism "work." It's hard to think of any more dangerous invention. Even nuclear weapons aren't as dangerous as a sustainable model for modern tyrannical government. This is an in…

Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government.

> Seems many Americans are willing to crap all over the 2nd Amendment, which is specifically in place to prevent totalitarian government.

The 2nd Amendment specifies that a well regulated militia is necessary for a free state, and that the right to keep and bear arms cannot be abridged by the Federal government.

Nothing in that amendment specifically mentions the purpose of preventing totalitarian government. That's a modern interpretation, albeit one currently upheld by the Supreme Court.